# United Methodist Church to Split into Two Denominations over LGBT Rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 4, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912 "2020-01-04T02:15:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/21 "2020-01-04T14:22:24Z")
> [@ThisSpaceForRent](#): > > What do you and she believe now, in today’s society? > > Just curious…Thanks. We’re Unitarian Universalists, and neither of us consider ourselves Christians anymore. I tend towards atheism, the Mrs. to agnosticism. We’re there for the accepting community and the social justice work opportunities. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/22 "2020-01-04T18:59:11Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Episcopal or Catholic? The first one is hard to grasp because the Episcopalians are the most friendly LGBT church out there, and the second is even harder because I don’t care how popular you are, the Vatican ain’t letting priests even think of same sex marriages. That said, I will tell you that I have, indeed, attended a same-sex marriage at a Catholic church, officiated by a Catholic priest. But, there are some extenuating circumstances. My college girlfriend (we had a very amicable break-up, and have always remained good friends) eventually decided that she was bisexual, but was more attracted to women. She had a long-term partner, and, when SSM became legal, they decided to get married. Her now-wife is from St. Louis; it turns out that there is a Catholic parish in St. Louis (St. Stanislaus Kostka) which declared its independence from the St. Louis diocese in 2005, due to a dispute over property and money – short version ([link](http://saintstan.org/about.html)), the parish had been originally set up as an independent, not-for-profit corporation with a substantial trust fund, the diocese attempted to take it over, the church council said “no,” and after censure (and excommunication) by the archbishop, the parish decided to leave the diocese, and the Roman Catholic Church organization. Now that they’re an independent church, they have decided to embrace the LGBT community (among other liberal causes), and they conduct same-sex marriages. My old girlfriend and her partner were married there in 2015. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/23 "2020-01-04T20:15:53Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > That said, I will tell you that I have, indeed, attended a same-sex marriage at a Catholic church, officiated by a Catholic priest. You clearly did not. Those are more than merely extenuating circumstances. That officiant was excommunicated and laicized by the Pope. Even your link, from the church’s viewpoint, shows that they have now legally agreed “that it will not hold itself out as affiliated in any way with the Archdiocese of St. Louis or the Roman Catholic Church.” That agreement was the _year before_ SCOTUS legalized SSM in Obergefell. Martin Luther was also a Catholic priest who was later excommunicated. Would you refer to him as a Catholic priest? ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/24 "2020-01-04T21:08:25Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > No, the name is because of a merger: > > [Methodist Church (USA) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methodist_Church_(USA)) My aunt was the secretary at the local Methodist church at the time of the merger. The first time I heard her answer the phone with “First United Methodist Church,” I asked, “Do you have to say all that every time now?” ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/25 "2020-01-04T22:25:27Z")
There’s a lot of UMS churches in my town, I wonder which ones will go with the one or other of the new denominations. In fact, my sister and BIL belong to a Methodist church. Maybe as it’s named for Susanna Wesley, the mother(I think?) of John and Charles Wesley, it will go with the more liberal group. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/26 "2020-01-04T22:27:47Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > There’s a lot of UMS churches in my town, I wonder which ones will go with the one or other of the new denominations. In fact, my sister and BIL belong to a Methodist church. Maybe as it’s named for Susanna Wesley, the mother(I think?) of John and Charles Wesley, it will go with the more liberal group. My aunt was a devout _conservative_, biblical-literalist, anti-dancing, anti-drinking Methodist. The females in the Methodist hierarchy are not always representative of liberal thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/27 "2020-01-04T22:31:35Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > You clearly did not. Those are more than merely extenuating circumstances. That officiant was excommunicated and laicized by the Pope. Even your link, from the church’s viewpoint, shows that they have now legally agreed “that it will not hold itself out as affiliated in any way with the Archdiocese of St. Louis or the Roman Catholic Church.” That agreement was the _year before_ SCOTUS legalized SSM in Obergefell. > > Martin Luther was also a Catholic priest who was later excommunicated. Would you refer to him as a Catholic priest? ooooh. Funny to see someone so clearly understanding the technicalities in the same post also conflating the terms “Catholic” and “Roman Catholic” (And of course also funny to see “Catholic” confused with “Roman Rite” in the post you are responding to, but that poster had the excuse of ignorance) ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/28 "2020-01-04T22:34:43Z")
Divided Methodist Church? Separating Methodist Church? Am I right in thinking there must be some jokes circulating in the communities? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/29 "2020-01-04T23:59:42Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > ooooh. Funny to see someone so clearly understanding the technicalities in the same post also conflating the terms “Catholic” and “Roman Catholic” > > (And of course also funny to see “Catholic” confused with “Roman Rite” in the post you are responding to, but that poster had the excuse of ignorance) As you note, they are _not_ (and do not claim to be) a _ **Roman** _ Catholic church any longer (but I said that). There are a number of Catholic churches which are not part of the Roman Catholic Church, such as the [Old Catholic churches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Utrecht_(Old_Catholic)), and various [independent catholic churches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Catholicism). As for the church in St. Louis, they, themselves, still do refer to themselves as Catholic. They title themselves as “Saint Stanislaus Kostka Polish Catholic Church,” and, as [their web page](http://saintstan.org/index.html) says, “We proudly profess Catholic faith and celebrate Catholic sacraments, but we are no longer a part of the Archdiocese of St. Louis, nor do we belong to the institutional Roman Catholic Church.” But, I imagine that many Roman Catholics look at those churches, and might say, “I don’t care what you say you are, you ain’t Catholic.” ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/30 "2020-01-05T00:49:16Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > We’re Unitarian Universalists, and neither of us consider ourselves Christians anymore. I tend towards atheism, the Mrs. to agnosticism. We’re there for the accepting community and the social justice work opportunities. I’m not sure what the real difference between you and your wife. My good friend, who is UU asked me my beliefs. My answer was that by what I know, I am agnostic, but what I actually believe is that there is no god. BTW, he appears to have a genuine belief in god, but fully appreciates my view. He grew up as some sort of Protestant, can’t remember what, but has long left it. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/31 "2020-01-05T01:35:39Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > You clearly did not. Those are more than merely extenuating circumstances. That officiant was excommunicated and laicized by the Pope. Even your link, from the church’s viewpoint, shows that they have now legally agreed “that it will not hold itself out as affiliated in any way with the Archdiocese of St. Louis or the Roman Catholic Church.” That agreement was the _year before_ SCOTUS legalized SSM in Obergefell. The Roman Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on the term “catholic”. For instance, the official name of the Othodox church is the Orthodox Catholic Church. The Anglican Church also considers itself part of the Catholic Church, broadly defined by the Nicene creed. And there are other groups which no longer acknowledge the supremacy if the pope but consider themselves catholic, such as the Old Catholics already mentioned. > [@](#): > > Martin Luther was also a Catholic priest who was later excommunicated. Would you refer to him as a Catholic priest? Excommunication does not mean you cease to be Catholic, it is that you are no longer in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. As for Luther, what did he himself say on the issue? ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/32 "2020-01-05T21:17:49Z")
Small-c “catholic” means “universal”, which no church is, except in its dreams. Religions always schism - that’s a telltale for belief systems. You can either agree to the game rules, or break off and start another game with your own rules. Then some of your players will disagree and start another game. Life is boring otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/33 "2020-01-05T23:08:10Z")
How do you keep track of all these? Is there a “tree of life” equivalent to religions? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/34 "2020-01-05T23:29:41Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > How do you keep track of all these? Is there a “tree of life” equivalent to religions? As a matter of fact (at least for Christianity), a few examples (though these typically don’t include smaller denominations): [https://www.psalm11918.org/References/Technical-References/Family-Tree-of-Christian-Denominations.html](https://www.psalm11918.org/References/Technical-References/Family-Tree-of-Christian-Denominations.html) [![](https://mattofbrown.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/denominations_historical_treechart.png) ](https://mattofbrown.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/denominations_historical_treechart.png) [![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/82/85/82/828582f1909327bd326fc76adee3e017.png) ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/82/85/82/828582f1909327bd326fc76adee3e017.png) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912/35 "2020-01-08T01:41:47Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Small-c “catholic” means “universal”, which no church is, except in its dreams. Religions always schism - that’s a telltale for belief systems. You can either agree to the game rules, or break off and start another game with your own rules. Then some of your players will disagree and start another game. Life is boring otherwise. Except Orthodox, Old Catholics and Anglo-Catholics aren’t small c-catholics. They assert that they are Catholic, just as much as those who follow the Roman rite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united-methodist-church-to-split-into-two-denominations-over-lgbt-rights/845912.md?page=1)