# United **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2017, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284 "2017-04-12T02:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/21 "2017-04-12T08:17:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If he wasn’t entitled to be there, then why did they allow him on in the first place? You can’t jusyt change your mind on a dime. The airline had an obligation toward its passengers; it can’t just suddenly decide that the obligation doesn’t exist if it happens to inconvenience it. That’s not how obligation works. The fact that you believe a business has a contractual obligation to do something doesn’t necessarily entitle you to remain on the premises of the business until that obligation is fulfilled. You may have to leave and go to court, which is where contracts are interpreted when there is a dispute. Even if you’re 100% right in your interpretation of a contract, that doesn’t confer on you the right to enforce the contract on the spot by standing your ground and refusing to leave. It’s like how being arrested illegally doesn’t give you the right to resist arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/22 "2017-04-12T08:20:29Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > It’s like how being arrested illegally doesn’t give you the right to resist arrest. Sure it does. That’s the essence of civil disobedience. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/23 "2017-04-12T08:21:48Z")
I have to hand it to you, **Smapti** - a couple months ago, your approach to law enforcement made you one of the most hated people on this board. Now, based on the United incident, it seems that your views have become mainstream, perhaps even predominant. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/24 "2017-04-12T08:27:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Sure it does. That’s the essence of civil disobedience. You act as if this was some grand stand in defense of one’s civil rights in the face of an intolerant state action. It _wasn’t_. This was one man deciding that the rules didn’t apply to him and that his needs as an individual override the needs of the many whose flights would have been cancelled or delayed if the flight crew hadn’t been able to reach their worksite on time. This is “the customer is always right” syndrome turned up to 11. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/25 "2017-04-12T08:31:57Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > i agree w everything you said, right up until the part i underlined. the guy was clearly not standing up against a bad law. he was either being selfish, elitist, or fearful depending on how you look at it. fortunately for him, there was also bad business policies and law enforcement tactics involved to take some of the heat off of him. > > mc He was a doctor with patients to see in the morning. The selfish prick ! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/26 "2017-04-12T08:33:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You act as if this was some grand stand in defense of one’s civil rights in the face of an intolerant state action. > > It _wasn’t_. That’s your opinion. Personally, I saw it as a grand stand in defense of one’s consumer rights in the face of an intolerant corporate action. Not quite Rosa Parks, I agree, but cut from teh same cloth. > [@Smapti](#): > > This was one man deciding that the rules didn’t apply to him and that his needs as an individual override the needs of the many whose flights would have been cancelled or delayed if the flight crew hadn’t been able to reach their worksite on time. How was that David Dao’s problem? The airline screwed up, the airline should fix it at their own expense, not at the expense of an innocent bystander. The essence of being a mensch is not dumping your problems on someone else. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/27 "2017-04-12T08:34:52Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > . . .Even if you’re 100% right in your interpretation of a contract, that doesn’t confer on you the right to enforce the contract on the spot by standing your ground and refusing to leave. . . however, you have to make at least some attempt to hold your ground and attempt to have the contract enforced, otherwise you may lose your legal standing. it can be said that you agreed with the decision at the time that you had no claim to the services. mc ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/28 "2017-04-12T08:39:36Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > He was a doctor with patients to see in the morning. The selfish prick ! in that case it would be elitist prick. he felt that his obligations were more important than some other passenger - they should have to give up their seat, not him. mc ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/29 "2017-04-12T08:40:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > He was a doctor with patients to see in the morning. The selfish prick ! And I’m sure lots of other people on that flight had a good reason to be in Louisville the next morning, but it’s not the airline’s job to rate your value to society when it comes to randomly selecting someone for deplaning. > [@Alessan](#): > > How was that David Dao’s problem? The airline screwed up, the airline should fix it at their own expense, not at the expense of an innocent bystander. The essence of being a mensch is not dumping your problems on someone else. And how many _other_ customers should suffer because of one man’s unwillingness to abide by the rules he _agreed to_ when he bought a ticket? If he didn’t want to play by the same rules every single other passenger abides by, he should’ve caught a Greyhound. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/30 "2017-04-12T08:40:42Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > in that case it would be elitist prick. he felt that his obligations were more important than some other passenger - they should have to give up their seat, not him. > > mc No, he thought _nobody_ should be forced to give up their seat. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/31 "2017-04-12T08:42:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And how many _other_ customers should suffer because of one man’s unwillingness to abide by the rules he _agreed to_ when he bought a ticket? If he didn’t want to play by the same rules every single other passenger abides by, he should’ve caught a Greyhound. Rules he was _forced_ to agree to, as he had no other choice. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/32 "2017-04-12T08:44:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Rules he was _forced_ to agree to, as he had no other choice. He had a choice to buy a ticket or not buy a ticket. He chose to buy a ticket. > [@Alessan](#): > > No, he thought _nobody_ should be forced to give up their seat. His thought was selfish and unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/33 "2017-04-12T09:12:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He had a choice to buy a ticket or not buy a ticket. He chose to buy a ticket. Right. If you don’t like the airlines’ rules, just don’t fly. If you don’t like the ISP’s rules, just don’t use the internet. If you don’t like the electric company’s rules, just sit there in the dark. So long as you have a _choice_. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/34 "2017-04-12T09:25:16Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Right. If you don’t like the airlines’ rules, just don’t fly. If you don’t like the ISP’s rules, just don’t use the internet. If you don’t like the electric company’s rules, just sit there in the dark. So long as you have a _choice_. Correct. Participating in a civilized society means you have to follow the rules. If you don’t like the rules, feel free to go live in the forest and scrounge nuts and berries for sustenance until you die of an infected ferret bite at the ripe old age of 23. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/35 "2017-04-12T10:40:38Z")
There was only a short distance involved. How hard would it have been to charter a small plane to fly the airline personnel? Surely cost-effective given the delays required with the bumping method, and the now-obvious risk of insufficient volunteer bumpees. For that matter, why not offer volunteers a limousine ride to Louisville, champagne included? (Would that be legal? It’s often shown in movies! 😛 ) ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ BTW, if I were bidding to be bumped, I would _much_ prefer $400 cash over $1000 in vouchers. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/36 "2017-04-12T10:51:06Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Surely cost-effective given the delays required with the bumping method, and the now-obvious risk of insufficient volunteer bumpees. Normally that’s not a huge risk. This is typically handled at the gate, and if the chosen passenger wants to shout that it’s unfair and refuse to accept it, that’s no big deal because they’re not on the plane yet. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/37 "2017-04-12T10:58:12Z")
I heard on the network news last night that the airline personnel were authorized to offer up to $1350.00 for a volunteer to give up a seat, but that they made no such offer before dragging that guy out of his seat. Fuck those assholes. They sure saved that money, huh? Dumbfucks. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/38 "2017-04-12T11:11:22Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I heard on the network news last night that the airline personnel were authorized to offer up to $1350.00 for a volunteer to give up a seat, but that they made no such offer before dragging that guy out of his seat. Fuck those assholes. They sure saved that money, huh? Dumbfucks. I don’t think there’s a cap on how much they’re allowed to _offer_. $1350 is the most the airline can be required to give when someone is involuntarily bumped. (Of course, so long as that cap exists, they don’t have much of an incentive to offer more than that. The vast majority of involuntary denials do not result in violence or news coverage.) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/39 "2017-04-12T11:38:04Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The police having the authority to use force to deny you a service you have paid for and are entitled to receive is definitely a bad law. The whole problem with this (and I say this as a person who has been handling contract disputes for far too close to 30 years) is that very roughly half the people involved in contractual disputes are incorrect about their position. So let’s tweak the situation a little. Let’s take it as read for the purpose of this example that the guy on the plane _was not_ contractually or ethically entitled to be on it but sincerely believed he was. What now? Should the guy who is on there just be allowed to stay because he’s there and he’s refusing to leave ie might is right? Should there be a quick judicial hearing? How is this civil dispute to be decided? The law takes the only practical course which is to say, if a property owner demands that a person leave, the police will enforce that demand. If - as it turns out - the demand was a breach of contract then the property owner will be made civilly liable at a later date. If - as it turns out - the demand was unethical but not actionable then presumably the property owner will (or at least should) suffer in the hands of public opinion, as is usually the case for someone who does something unethical but lawful. The guy on the United flight was outrageously manhandled and I have no sympathy for those who did that. But as a matter of legal and civil policy, it is completely appropriate that United has an enforceable entitlement to make immediate decisions (even civilly actionable or unethical but lawful decisions) about what happens on their property. If someone interfered with your property in a manner that caused immediate problems for you, but claimed to have a civil right to do what they were doing and the police (with their total lack of knowledge of civil law) said “sorry, we accept his version of what the contract means, we’re not going to stop what he’s doing” I think you would change your tune rather quickly. Hard cases make bad law, and bad policy. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2017, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/40 "2017-04-12T12:13:57Z")
Those are some good points, I’ll grant you that. I’m just highly skeptical of the ability of lawsuits to resolve anything, especially when one side is a megacorproations with multiple law firms on retainer, and the other side is just an average schmuck. The power imbalance is too great. Lawsuits take years, cost huge amounts of money and generally only benefit the stronger party. Saying that they’re a viable solution to a situation like this is a pipe dream. The best way to win a suit is to prevent it, and you do that by standing your ground and not giving away what you’v already got. In the case at hand, what he was was a seat, and not giving it up was the smart thing to do. The only power an ordinary individual has over someone vastly more powerful than him is the ability to say “no”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284.md?page=3)