# United **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2017, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284 "2017-04-12T02:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/81 "2017-04-13T00:46:33Z")
I think it’s fascinating how it went viral, right away in China. Exploded with accusations of racism against Chinese and they’d be Trump’s next target, etc, etc. Right up until…it was revealed the Dr was actually Vietnamese! And then…radio silence. That’s kinda hilarious when you consider how offended a Chinese would be, to be confused for a Vietnamese. This event really did take on a life of its own. Worldwide! (Southwest Air, we beat the competition. Not you. United Airline, announces beatings will continue till volunteering improves! United Airline, no more seating, get reading for a beating! I’m personally enjoying this stuff the most!) ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/82 "2017-04-13T00:50:24Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > as someone pointed out in one of the other threads, it doesnt have to be an either or decision. i think its perfectly reasonable to point out that there’s plenty of blame to go around. everybody involved in this fiasco looks bad; including the passenger. > > mc The passenger looks pretty good from where I sit. He stood up for his rights against a giant corporation and some abusive cops and both the airline and the police department have acknowledged they were wrong and he was right. He will probably be getting a tidy settlement from both soon and will be able to fly privately from now on. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/83 "2017-04-13T01:52:11Z")
Yes, I understand the rules of airlines, roadways, trains, etc. But… I’m siding with the guy, even if he was an unemployed ditch digger with four alimony payments to make. I’m a single guy, no wife, kids. I’m the “type” they come and ask if I’d switch. Almost did that last year, but my dad was in the hospital, so not in that case. But if it were for a regular family visit, I’d consider taking the voucher… NOT WHEN I’M ALREADY ON THE FUCKING PLANE! NO! YOUR FAULT! FUCK YOU, STEWARDESS. TELL THE GENIUSES AT BOOKING THEY SUCK DONKEY CACTUS BALLS AND BRING ME A FREE VODKA TONIC FOR HEARING YOUR EMBARRASSING FUCK-UP STORY! And yes, if they offer me something BEFORE I’m on the plane, I would prefer cash over voucher too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/84 "2017-04-13T02:52:17Z")
I wonder why the airline isn’t more concerned about how future passengers will react to thugs coming onto the plane. I seem to recall a United flight in which some thugs had to face off against the entire aircraft and it didn’t go well for anyone involved. A certain flight 93 if I recall correctly. Seriously, they’ve got to think about this now. Some dude is getting dragged off the plane. The other pax get brave and decide to get in the way. Well now you’ve got what is essentially a hostage situation on an aircraft. Or a hijacking because the pilots are locked in the cockpit and have no idea what’s going outside other than it’s chaotic and they’re scared. So they flip the transponder to 7500 (while at the goddamn gate!) and no matter what happens then, no one is getting to their destination on time. Get with it, United. It only takes that one guy to say “let’s roll” and you’ve already carried that passenger. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/85 "2017-04-13T02:55:13Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > How is this supposed to work? The airline was obviously of the belief, correctly or incorrectly, that the passenger wasn’t entitled to be on the plane. The police have no reasonable way to evaluate whether that belief is true. Sure they do. Did he have a ticket? Then he was entitled. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/86 "2017-04-13T03:00:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And I’m sure lots of other people on that flight had a good reason to be in Louisville the next morning, but it’s not the airline’s job to rate your value to society when it comes to randomly selecting someone for deplaning. > > And how many _other_ customers should suffer because of one man’s unwillingness to abide by the rules he _agreed to_ when he bought a ticket? If he didn’t want to play by the same rules every single other passenger abides by, he should’ve caught a Greyhound. That’s the great thing about the auction mechanism. It allows those who value the flight the most to take the flight. If united is not willing to offer more than $800 and noone is willing to take $800 then the seat on the flight is less valuable to united than anyone that is already on the flight. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/87 "2017-04-13T03:06:07Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > The whole problem with this (and I say this as a person who has been handling contract disputes for far too close to 30 years) is that very roughly half the people involved in contractual disputes are incorrect about their position. > > So let’s tweak the situation a little. Let’s take it as read for the purpose of this example that the guy on the plane _was not_ contractually or ethically entitled to be on it but sincerely believed he was. > > What now? Should the guy who is on there just be allowed to stay because he’s there and he’s refusing to leave ie might is right? Should there be a quick judicial hearing? How is this civil dispute to be decided? The law takes the only practical course which is to say, if a property owner demands that a person leave, the police will enforce that demand. If - as it turns out - the demand was a breach of contract then the property owner will be made civilly liable at a later date. If - as it turns out - the demand was unethical but not actionable then presumably the property owner will (or at least should) suffer in the hands of public opinion, as is usually the case for someone who does something unethical but lawful. > > The guy on the United flight was outrageously manhandled and I have no sympathy for those who did that. > > But as a matter of legal and civil policy, it is completely appropriate that United has an enforceable entitlement to make immediate decisions (even civilly actionable or unethical but lawful decisions) about what happens on their property. > > If someone interfered with your property in a manner that caused immediate problems for you, but claimed to have a civil right to do what they were doing and the police (with their total lack of knowledge of civil law) said “sorry, we accept his version of what the contract means, we’re not going to stop what he’s doing” I think you would change your tune rather quickly. > > Hard cases make bad law, and bad policy. This is not a Gordion knot. Does the passenger have a valid ticket? ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/88 "2017-04-13T03:14:08Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > The passenger looks pretty good from where I sit. He stood up for his rights against a giant corporation and some abusive cops and both the airline and the police department have acknowledged they were wrong and he was right. He will probably be getting a tidy settlement from both soon and will be able to fly privately from now on. please, he pitched a fit and got beaten into martyrdom for a cause he didnt know existed and would’ve said nothing about if the lottery had picked someone else. and while the airline and cpd have admitted to their mishandling of the situation, i’ve not heard one word from them that “he was right” mc ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/89 "2017-04-13T03:18:25Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Do we write laws only to prohibit very common incidents? No we don’t. We very often prohibit things that aren’t necessarily common. > > As for “massive regulation changes,” I’m not sure where on the scale this falls between massive and negligible, but it seems to me to be a rather narrow issue to deal with. Airlines are subject to a lot of regulations. This one more thing isn’t going to confuse them too much. > > And of course theoretically statutory or regulatory changes might not even be necessary, if it so happens that the court of public opinion is sufficient to shame airlines into halting this practice. It’s all good. > > So long as airlines no longer forcibly remove seated passengers in order to give their seats to someone else, I don’t really care how we get there. I don’t even care if they’re seated. Barring a national emergency, the airline should bear the cost of overbooking. They enjoy the benefits of over booking and they ought to bear the costs, whatever they may be. When you cap those costs, you are providing an artificial incentive to over book. When you give then the full force of the police power to shift the cost of overbooking to the passengers, how does that promote any national interest ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/90 "2017-04-13T03:26:04Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > … i’ve not heard one word from them that “he was right” Oscar Munoz, CEO of United: > [@](#): > > Munoz also said he doesn’t think Dao was at fault in the incident. “He was a paying passenger sitting in our aircraft. No one should be treated that way,” he said. > > “To remove a booked, paid, seating passenger, we can’t do that,” he said. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/91 "2017-04-13T03:32:48Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Yes, I understand the rules of airlines, roadways, trains, etc. But… I’m siding with the guy, even if he was an unemployed ditch digger with four alimony payments to make. > > I’m a single guy, no wife, kids. I’m the “type” they come and ask if I’d switch. Almost did that last year, but my dad was in the hospital, so not in that case. But if it were for a regular family visit, I’d consider taking the voucher… NOT WHEN I’M ALREADY ON THE FUCKING PLANE! NO! YOUR FAULT! FUCK YOU, STEWARDESS. TELL THE GENIUSES AT BOOKING THEY SUCK DONKEY CACTUS BALLS AND BRING ME A FREE VODKA TONIC FOR HEARING YOUR EMBARRASSING FUCK-UP STORY! > > And yes, if they offer me something BEFORE I’m on the plane, I would prefer cash over voucher too. 🙂 Exactly. Also, there’s a difference between asking someone and just removing them forcibly if they say no. If the guy had an operation at eight the next morning, or even if he didn’t, if he says no and he’s already on the plane, then leave him the fuck alone. A better tactic? How about increase the offer, but make a public announcement of the upgrade offer, and say this plane can not depart until someone volunteers. Chances are peer pressure will do the rest, instead of peer pressure hunting against United. Just saying. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/92 "2017-04-13T03:36:50Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > I wonder why the airline isn’t more concerned about how future passengers will react to thugs coming onto the plane. I seem to recall a United flight in which some thugs had to face off against the entire aircraft and it didn’t go well for anyone involved. A certain flight 93 if I recall correctly. > > Seriously, they’ve got to think about this now. Some dude is getting dragged off the plane. The other pax get brave and decide to get in the way. Well now you’ve got what is essentially a hostage situation on an aircraft. Or a hijacking because the pilots are locked in the cockpit and have no idea what’s going outside other than it’s chaotic and they’re scared. So they flip the transponder to 7500 (while at the goddamn gate!) and no matter what happens then, no one is getting to their destination on time. > > Get with it, United. It only takes that one guy to say “let’s roll” and you’ve already carried that passenger. Ah yes, Flight 93 of popular folklore. The aircraft that disappeared into the 30 foot wide “soft ground” of Shanksville, Pennsylvania, with absolutely no evidence left behind apart from a burning patch of grass. [https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170413/3e94776dd0dc8ad245db7632edee6835.jpg](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170413/3e94776dd0dc8ad245db7632edee6835.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/93 "2017-04-13T03:41:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t even care if they’re seated. Barring a national emergency, the airline should bear the cost of overbooking. They enjoy the benefits of over booking and they ought to bear the costs, whatever they may be. When you cap those costs, you are providing an artificial incentive to over book. When you give then the full force of the police power to shift the cost of overbooking to the passengers, how does that promote any national interest United will be paying more than the cost of a single ticket refund in lost revenue when enough people cancel their bookings and the stock price plummet damages investor confidence. Actions have consequences. It’s almost as bad as if, say, a scorpion fell out of the luggage compartment and not you on the head. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/94 "2017-04-13T04:10:21Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Ah yes, Flight 93 of popular folklore. The aircraft that disappeared into the 30 foot wide “soft ground” of Shanksville, Pennsylvania, with absolutely no evidence left behind apart from a burning patch of grass. > > [https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170413/3e94776dd0dc8ad245db7632edee6835.jpg](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170413/3e94776dd0dc8ad245db7632edee6835.jpg) Wait, we have a 911 Truther in our midsts? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/95 "2017-04-13T04:40:24Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Oscar Munoz, CEO of United: > > > [@](#): > > > > Munoz also said he doesn’t think Dao was at fault in the incident. “He was a paying passenger sitting in our aircraft. No one should be treated that way,” he said. > > > > “To remove a booked, paid, seating passenger, we can’t do that,” he said. _I’ve got something to say that might cause you pain If we need some extra seats on this here plane We’re gonna kick you out And knock you flat! But if the PR is bad: “Oh, we can’t do that!”_ ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/96 "2017-04-13T04:41:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Sure they do. Did he have a ticket? Then he was entitled. And what if the airline says he _doesn’t_ have a ticket any more, because it was canceled as part of his involuntary denial? I can get behind the idea that the airline handled this whole thing incorrectly from beginning to end, and that the police and that the police escalated their use of force incorrectly. But the idea that the police simply shouldn’t get involved _at all_ just because one party _says_ they’re right borders on sovereign citizen-level fucktardery. By tomorrow I expect people to start saying that airplanes operate under admiralty law and that you can’t be removed once your butt has created joinder with the seat cushion, and in any case the guy’s name was in all-caps on the ticket so they could only remove the legal person and not the natural person. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/97 "2017-04-13T05:53:28Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > And what if the airline says he _doesn’t_ have a ticket any more, because it was canceled as part of his involuntary denial? Then the airline is breaking the deal with him, and abusing powers that are meant to deal with emergency situations and terrorist attacks, not to prevent the airline from paying market rates for it’s bad planning. If they had simply kept offering money until people volunteered to take the cash, they would have solved the whole problem in a completely fair and above-board manner. Instead they resorted to violence because they thought they could get away with it. It’s not even clear that what they did was actually legal or within their own policies and procedures. And as I pointed out in the other thread, United considers $5650 per hour a reasonable rate for a person’s time, so their pitiful offers for someone to take a 20 hour delay didn’t even hit 1% of what their own financial actions say is reasonable to compensate a person. The people defending them with ‘but an auction might cost them too much money’ are just being absurd; none of those auctions in the past have ever hit the $100k mark. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/98 "2017-04-13T06:13:32Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Oscar Munoz, CEO of United: i stand corrected. mc ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/99 "2017-04-13T06:25:43Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I think it’s fascinating how it went viral, right away in China. Exploded with accusations of racism against Chinese and they’d be Trump’s next target, etc, etc. Right up until…it was revealed the Dr was actually Vietnamese! And then…radio silence. That’s kinda hilarious when you consider how offended a Chinese would be, to be confused for a Vietnamese. I live in China and there continues to be a lot of outrage expressed on WeChat, QQ, Quora etc. A surprising amount, when you consider the human rights abuses that are common here. A number of people in my social circle have gone as far as sharing pictures of them destroying their frequent flyer cards. There are political issues between China and Vietnam, but not to the point where we can’t sympathize with an individual (or appreciate that the typical American would not be able to tell the difference anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2017, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/100 "2017-04-13T06:32:47Z")
Just noticed irony of saying “I live in China, and there’s a lot of outrage on \” 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284.md?page=6)