# United **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2017, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284 "2017-04-12T02:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2017, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/141 "2017-04-14T03:56:46Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > Fortunately this incident came along at a time when Rev Jackson desperately needed another boost in his ongoing struggle to appear relevant. The Reverend Jackson is mentioned, not quoted, two-thirds of the way down the article. Pretty poor evidence of any attempt on his part to attract attention. Evidence of any ongoing struggle to be in the news for the last many years is pretty sparse. Appearance at a large gathering protesting in favor of civil rights isn’t anything to be ashamed of. Maybe you’re articulating an old grievance that has nothing to do with him, now? ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2017, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/142 "2017-04-15T19:34:44Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > [3 Things to Know About the Officers in the United Airlines Fiasco – Chicago Magazine](http://www.chicagomag.com/city-life/April-2017/3-Things-to-Know-About-the-Officers-in-the-United-Airlines-Fiasco/) > > i dont know what this little tidbit of info adds to the convo: > > apparently the “officers” were not Chicago PO, they are private airport security. they have been told in the past by CPD to not wear signs that identify them as “police” and yet they continue to do so and can be seen doing so in the video. > > mc One would think that real police officers would have better training in crisis management. Oh wait. Sorry, I’m from Canada. ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/143 "2017-04-15T22:10:29Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > There are arguments about when it’s best to fight the law. But this mindset that “following the law” is itself the right thing is ridiculous, and it’s weird that so many supposed “liberals” are pushing such an authoritarian ideal. My theory about this is that many Dopers were obsequious teacher’s-pet types in school— sitting up straight at their desks, never talking or passing notes, always the first to raise their hands when the teacher asks a question, and ratting out the class clown at every opportunity. Although they grew into socially and politically liberal adults, they never quite let go of their “rules are rules” mindset. So, of course they think Dr. Dao should be [del]sent to the principal’s office[/del] beaten and dragged off the plane for refusing to Respect Authority and leave meekly and quietly like a model student. Everyone knows that stuff like that goes in your Permanent Record! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/144 "2017-04-15T22:16:51Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > My theory about this is that many Dopers were obsequious teacher’s-pet types in school— sitting up straight at their desks, never talking or passing notes, always the first to raise their hands when the teacher asks a question, and ratting out the class clown at every opportunity. > > Although they grew into socially and politically liberal adults, they never quite let go of their “rules are rules” mindset. So, of course they think Dr. Dao should be [del]sent to the principal’s office[/del] beaten and dragged off the plane for refusing to Respect Authority and leave meekly and quietly like a model student. Everyone knows that stuff like that goes in your Permanent Record! 😃 We were taught to follow the rules in elementary school, critical thinking did come later. I never really caught on for the former, still working on the latter. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2017, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/145 "2017-04-15T22:27:48Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > Although they grew into socially and politically liberal adults, they never quite let go of their “rules are rules” mindset… I’d agree, though I think you overstated your case to make a very humorous delivery. But I’d expand it to most people. A lot of Americans, especially white middle-class ones, have an unspoken attitude of “The police are your friends, and the rules are there for a purpose.” I grew up during the Eisenhower administration, and the rules and minds were as narrow as the ties. I always say my wife “never met a rule she didn’t love” (my Asian Lutheran wife; I know, what was I thinking?). But even she blames the “almost-cops” and the airline in this case. I want to know how the airline person who made the decision to call Security is feeling. Somewhere between chagrined and horrified, I hope. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/146 "2017-04-16T00:40:45Z")
Don’t know if this has been posted yet. A legal interpretation about why United acted inappropriately. [https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170416/852cff27b482934b414b91d849f12d01.jpg](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170416/852cff27b482934b414b91d849f12d01.jpg) > **[Why United Was Legally Wrong to Deplane David Dao](https://www.newsweek.com/why-united-were-legally-wrong-deplane-dr-dao-583535)** > > There is no provision in the contract for deplaning a seated passenger because the flight is oversold. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/147 "2017-04-17T13:20:18Z")
So the Airline admits it was wrong and vows never to try and get police to remove a passenger who has paid for the seat he is sitting in. > **[Zerohedge](https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-12/ashamed-united-ceo-vows-no-longer-use-police-forcibly-remove-passengers)** > > ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero I can find a cite but the police say they were wrong and won’t step in to remove paid passengers due to overbooking or situations like this one where the passenger does not pose a safety or security threat. But we have posters here who keep insisting that the passengers did the wrong thing by not doing what they say when they say it (most have backed off on the “the cops and United were right to do what they did” bullshit). ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/148 "2017-04-17T13:27:45Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So the Airline admits it was wrong and vows never to try and get police to remove a passenger who has paid for the seat he is sitting in. > > [ZeroHedge](http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-12/ashamed-united-ceo-vows-no-longer-use-police-forcibly-remove-passengers) > > I can find a cite but the police say they were wrong and won’t step in to remove paid passengers due to overbooking or situations like this one where the passenger does not pose a safety or security threat. > > But we have posters here who keep insisting that the passengers did the wrong thing by not doing what they say when they say it (most have backed off on the “the cops and United were right to do what they did” bullshit). It is wrong to try to remove a passenger once they have boarded. You can try to entice them before they board, but once they’re on board, they’re on board. The United employees who wanted their seats can damn well catch the next flight or book ahead. Besides these weren’t even real police. They were Airport security. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/149 "2017-04-17T13:39:04Z")
They were not officers with the Chicago Police Department but instead with the Chicago Department of Aviation. That sounds like “real police” to me and [this article](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-united-chicago-aviation-police-met-20170413-story.html) from The Chicago Tribune appears to agree. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/150 "2017-04-17T14:09:57Z")
Firstly I think it’s odd that no one is really screaming about the police who so seriously over reacted. Even the stewardesses came out the next day and said as much. Pointing out how easily the arm rest could have been lifted out of the way before trying to haul the guy away. The entire thing could have gone differently had they done so, I think. Secondly, now United is all about, “From now on, flight crew needing to be accommodated MUST turn up at least an hour before boarding.”, to avoid such situations occurring again. Really? They couldn’t predict there would be problems if they just turn up at departure time? The same airlines that make all of us come hours early for every flight, couldn’t see a problem arising? Or didn’t give a shit because it only inconveniences the customers, not them? Y’know, until this happened! ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/151 "2017-04-17T15:18:23Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > They were not officers with the Chicago Police Department but instead with the Chicago Department of Aviation. That sounds like “real police” to me and [this article](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-united-chicago-aviation-police-met-20170413-story.html) from The Chicago Tribune appears to agree. If they were real police, it’s interesting that the Chicago Police Department would like to clarify the difference. Perhaps the Department of Aviation has different standards, but is this dragging a paid passenger off a plane business standard procedure for them? Have they done this before? Because it sure seemed like they were winging it. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/152 "2017-04-17T15:23:18Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Firstly I think it’s odd that no one is really screaming about the police who so seriously over reacted. Even the stewardesses came out the next day and said as much. Pointing out how easily the arm rest could have been lifted out of the way before trying to haul the guy away. The entire thing could have gone differently had they done so, I think. > Secondly, now United is all about, “From now on, flight crew needing to be accommodated MUST turn up at least an hour before boarding.”, to avoid such situations occurring again. Really? They couldn’t predict there would be problems if they just turn up at departure time? The same airlines that make all of us come hours early for every flight, couldn’t see a problem arising? Or didn’t give a shit because it only inconveniences the customers, not them? Y’know, until this happened! Exactly. This whole ugliness could and should have been so easily avoided. There is no excuse, and “just following orders” just doesn’t cut it as a reason. I’ve even read there’s a possibility that the Dr. David Dao referenced as an afterthought as a felon may be an entirely different person. Either way, this was unacceptable behaviour, and UA will be paying the price in more ways than one for a few moments of stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/153 "2017-04-17T15:25:46Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > They were not officers with the Chicago Police Department but instead with the Chicago Department of Aviation. That sounds like “real police” to me and [this article](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-united-chicago-aviation-police-met-20170413-story.html) from The Chicago Tribune appears to agree. > > If they were real police, it’s interesting that the Chicago Police Department would like to clarify the difference. Perhaps the Department of Aviation has different standards, but is this dragging a paid passenger off a plane business standard procedure for them? Have they done this before? Because it sure seemed like they were winging it. They were clarifying that the officers were not Chicago Police Department. And of course it’s not standard procedure. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/154 "2017-04-17T15:59:32Z")
And the Chicago Department of Aviation security office is itself investigating improper procedure. What I’ve read is to the effect that CDA police _are certified as LEOs_ by the State of Illinois - not mere private security - but that certification is quite basic relative to the standards used by the City and State Police forces. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/155 "2017-04-17T16:40:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So the Airline admits it was wrong and vows never to try and get police to remove a passenger who has paid for the seat he is sitting in. This is one of those life lessons you’d think could have been figured out ahead of time. > [@](#): > > But we have posters here who keep insisting that the passengers did the wrong thing by not doing what they say when they say it (most have backed off on the “the cops and United were right to do what they did” bullshit). Sorry, but it was still dumb of Dao not to get off the plane. Doesn’t make United right (or equally wrong, either; at least Dao is only one person making an error, versus a platoon of United and airport employees.) I am, again, mystified as to why people struggle with the concept that both sides can make errors in a disagreement. [QUOTE=elbows] Firstly I think it’s odd that no one is really screaming about the police who so seriously over reacted. Even the stewardesses came out the next day and said as much. [/QUOTE] The first clue the cops overreacted is the fact that the other passengers are horrified. In my experience, the person holding a flight up is the most hated human on the planet, in the eyes of everyone else on the plane. If they managed to turn the other passengers to his side, I am confident they used vastly unnecessary force. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/156 "2017-04-17T16:52:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He had a choice to buy a ticket or not buy a ticket. He chose to buy a ticket. Hobson, is that you? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/157 "2017-04-18T03:34:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This is one of those life lessons you’d think could have been figured out ahead of time. > Sorry, but it was still dumb of Dao not to get off the plane. Doesn’t make United right (or equally wrong, either; at least Dao is only one person making an error, versus a platoon of United and airport employees.) I am, again, mystified as to why people struggle with the concept that both sides can make errors in a disagreement. Standing up for your rights against bad rules and regulations is considered stupid by some and brave by others. Would United EVER have changed or even reconsidered their policy of fucking over their passengers if Dao hadn’t stood up to them. He might have done it because he had a desperate need to get home or he was just in a cranky mood but he made the entire airline industry more sensitive to how they treat passengers. I guarantee you there are people sitting on an airplane right now, just waiting for someone to say some shit and try to remove them from their seat. > [@](#): > > The first clue the cops overreacted is the fact that the other passengers are horrified. In my experience, the person holding a flight up is the most hated human on the planet, in the eyes of everyone else on the plane. If they managed to turn the other passengers to his side, I am confident they used vastly unnecessary force. I still remember when I was on a flight to Bermuda and some guy decided he was scared to fly insisted on getting off. His departure meant not only a delay because he had to get off, they had to go through the luggage to pull his bags. He was using our fucking flight as his therapy session. WTF!?!?! ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/158 "2017-04-18T06:51:10Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sorry, but it was still dumb of Dao not to get off the plane. Doesn’t make United right (or equally wrong, either; at least Dao is only one person making an error, versus a platoon of United and airport employees.) I am, again, mystified as to why people struggle with the concept that both sides can make errors in a disagreement. I don’t struggle with the concept, but I dispute Dao did anything wrong. Unless I missed something, the only legal opinion linked in this thread, says the airline has no legal mechanism to throw a passenger out once they’ve boarded. With the only exceptions being if the passenger is being dangerous or abusive, or the whole flight needs to be cancelled. So what kind of “error” are we talking about? Standing up to a bully? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/159 "2017-04-18T07:25:11Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I don’t struggle with the concept, but I dispute Dao did anything wrong. > Unless I missed something, the only legal opinion linked in this thread, says the airline has no legal mechanism to throw a passenger out once they’ve boarded. With the only exceptions being if the passenger is being dangerous or abusive, or the whole flight needs to be cancelled. Even if that’s true, that doesn’t necessarily mean he was allowed to refuse to get off the plane. Those are separate concepts. It’s like how it can be simultaneously true that (1) the cop wasn’t allowed to arrest you and (2) you’re guilty of resisting arrest. Sometimes the only way to behave legally in the face of an illegality is to give in and fight for your rights in the _proper_ venue. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2017, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284/160 "2017-04-18T07:34:15Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Even if that’s true, that doesn’t necessarily mean he was allowed to refuse to get off the plane. Those are separate concepts. It’s like how it can be simultaneously true that (1) the cop wasn’t allowed to arrest you and (2) you’re guilty of resisting arrest. Sometimes the only way to behave legally in the face of an illegality is to give in and fight for your rights in the _proper_ venue. Would fighting for his rights in the private venue have been as effective at making airlines change their policies? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/united/784284.md?page=9)