# universal healthcare will bankrupt this country, I call BS. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806 "2009-11-24T18:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/21 "2009-11-25T17:03:15Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > And further, ‘presentism’ is still more productive then ‘absentism’, even if the employee isn’t at full capacity. So if the other countries encourage ‘absentism’ over ‘presentism’, for what ever reason, be it more paid sick days or UHC mandates, it is still a net loss in productivity. Up to a point. On the graph, Americans average about 5 sick days a year, Britons about 5.5. So if the average American averaged only half a day of presentism, then yes, that would be clearly more productive than the Briton’s extra half day of absenteeism, even if the average Briton’s “presentism” were zero. On the other hand, if the average American averaged ten more days of presentism than the Briton, and his productivity were reduced by 25% during those days, that would be equal to 2.5 days of absenteeism, considerably more costly than the Briton’s extra half day of absenteeism. I concede that this in no way refutes your evidence; it merely points to potential approaches to answering it. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/22 "2009-11-25T18:11:48Z")
> [@Danimal](#): > > Up to a point. > > On the graph, Americans average about 5 sick days a year, Britons about 5.5. So if the average American averaged only half a day of presentism, then yes, that would be clearly more productive than the Briton’s extra half day of absenteeism, even if the average Briton’s “presentism” were zero. > > On the other hand, if the average American averaged ten more days of presentism than the Briton, and his productivity were reduced by 25% during those days, that would be equal to 2.5 days of absenteeism, considerably more costly than the Briton’s extra half day of absenteeism. > > I concede that this in no way refutes your evidence; it merely points to potential approaches to answering it. True. It also goes to show how ridiculous the claim in the blog is, which was that the $7 trillion lost to productivity due to absentism and presentism would miraculously completely disappear, if only UHC was implemented. ---
**Author:** ![rivulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/23 "2009-11-25T20:28:27Z")
> [@Danimal](#): > > 1. If other countries with UHC had sicker workforces than the USA to begin with, than UHC could still be saving them a lot of sick days, but not enough to match US workers’ records. But that contradicts evidence, ironically produced by UHC proponents themselves, that other UHC countries’ populations are generally healthier, not sicker, than the USA’s. > > 2. The graph doesn’t distinguish between paid and unpaid sick days. **If** UHC countries’ workers are offered more paid sick days than American workers, then they have an incentive to malinger longer than American workers. But I have no evidence for that “if.” > > 3. The graph doesn’t measure the “presentism” that [538.com](http://538.com) measures, meaning that UHC workers could be healthier and more productive when they do show up. But [538.com](http://538.com) itself seems to concede that American workers are exceptionally productive when they are at work. Let’s try another couple: 1. Other countries do not have this ridiculous American “work ethic” where people feel like their jobs, or promotions, or upward mobility in a company requires them to drag their sorry, sniffly asses to work even if they’re shedding virus right and left and sharing it with their co-workers (who will then have to drag _their_ sorry, sniffly asses to work a few days later). Therefore, people in other countries prudently take more sick days. 2. Other countries have more generous numbers of PTO days per year, so that people feel they can stay home when they are moderately sick and don’t feel like they have to hoard them against the possibility of more serious illness later in the year. Therefore, people in other countries prudently take more sick days when they need them. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/24 "2009-11-25T21:29:52Z")
The central conceit in so many of these arguments is that the USA exists in a vacuum, like the general financial model hasn’t existed and been refined for 100 years (Germany), 60 years (the UK), 10 years or so (Italy), or in all the other first world economies. It relies entirely on provincialism. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/25 "2009-11-25T22:02:35Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > True. It also goes to show how ridiculous the claim in the blog is, which was that the $7 trillion lost to productivity due to absentism and presentism would miraculously completely disappear, if only UHC was implemented. Plus, I doubt that most absenteeism is for things that require a doctor’s care. You don’t prevent colds by implementing UHC. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/26 "2009-11-25T22:20:28Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It leaves over 50 million uncovered and the tax payer has to absorb that cost. C’mon. Even the president has backed away from that absurd number. Subtract out illegals, middle class people who choose not to purchase insurance, the young who choose not to purchase insurance, and those who qualify for medicaid but fail to sign up and the number is really somewhere between 8 and 12 million. ---
**Author:** ![Templeton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Templeton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Templeton)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/27 "2009-11-26T23:12:32Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The bill itself only costs $800 billion, and half is paid via medicare cuts. So you invest $400 billion and see $800 billion cut from the deficit. How is this even mathematically possible? An $800 billion spending bill which is funded partially with cuts from other programs, simply will not cut anything from the budget deficit. Based on the figures you gave, it could only add $400 billion to the deficit which of course will likely need to be funded by something other than more deficit spending, such as addional taxes or program fees. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/28 "2009-11-27T01:37:19Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > C’mon. Even the president has backed away from that absurd number. Subtract out illegals, middle class people who choose not to purchase insurance, the young who choose not to purchase insurance, and those who qualify for medicaid but fail to sign up and the number is really somewhere between 8 and 12 million. Not true. But add in that 2/3 rds of bankruptcies are due to medical expenses and that 3/4 of those people had insurance, then you must understand what a mess we have. We don’t have health insurance but we pay double for it. How stupid does a system have to be before we reject it? The cost of insurance goes directly into the products we make. Does that make us more competitive or less? Does the company have a motive to cut back on insurance? If you want to change jobs, you have to consider that you will be uncovered for 3 months while the new company qualifies you. How comfortable does that make you? If your wife gets pregnant then, the insurance company can reject you for pre-existing conditions. Don’t break your leg or get sick then. We pay the most, get the least and harm our industries ability to compete. What is there about that system that you think should be saved? Do you enjoy fighting your insurance company every time something goes wrong? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/29 "2009-11-27T04:57:09Z")
\*\*Do you enjoy fighting your insurance company every time something goes wrong? \*\* I’d prefer that to a government that can’t be fought against at all. I guess it brings more peace of mind knowing there’s nothing you can do… **We pay the most, get the least and harm our industries ability to compete** And nothing in this bill changes any of that. That’s why it’s a waste of time. All the bill does is spend money to expand the current system. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/30 "2009-11-28T03:59:01Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Not true. But add in that 2/3 rds of bankruptcies are due to medical expenses and that 3/4 of those people had insurance, then you must understand what a mess we have. We don’t have health insurance but we pay double for it. How stupid does a system have to be before we reject it? > The cost of insurance goes directly into the products we make. Does that make us more competitive or less? Does the company have a motive to cut back on insurance? If you want to change jobs, you have to consider that you will be uncovered for 3 months while the new company qualifies you. How comfortable does that make you? If your wife gets pregnant then, the insurance company can reject you for pre-existing conditions. Don’t break your leg or get sick then. > We pay the most, get the least and harm our industries ability to compete. What is there about that system that you think should be saved? Do you enjoy fighting your insurance company every time something goes wrong? I wasn’t arguing any of those points. I just pointed out that you are wrong about the true number of uninsured but you choose to dismiss this point. Even the president isn’t using the 50 million number any more…even he has the sense to subtract out the illegals. Here is one quick link: [http://www.gop.gov/policy-news/09/09/10/census-uninsured-data](http://www.gop.gov/policy-news/09/09/10/census-uninsured-data) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/31 "2009-11-28T05:34:59Z")
[Study: 86.7 million Americans uninsured over last two years - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/04/uninsured.epidemic.obama/) I really don’t want to play that numbers game. I can drop countering cites on you all day. The fact is the uninsured are a huge problem and it is growing. More than that, people who think they are insured often find out that are not because the insurance company will weasel out of paying , even though they have been collecting premiums to do so. The numbers are getting bigger every day. It is shameful and unworthy of America. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/32 "2009-11-28T06:57:50Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > so, out of curiosity did you actually read the linked info? > millions of people with no coverage means billions in lost productivity, you seem to think that an average worker gets paid more than they produce or something. “Lost productivity” equals very indirect govt revenue. Universal Healthcare will be damned expensive. I wish the Pubbies would just keep it at that- no fucking death panels or other lies, just that “it’s too fucking expensive”. (I am not saying that it IS _too_ fucking expensive, but it will be damn expensive, like it or no.) ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/33 "2009-11-28T08:14:13Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > C’mon. Even the president has backed away from that absurd number. Subtract out illegals, middle class people who choose not to purchase insurance, the young who choose not to purchase insurance, and those who qualify for medicaid but fail to sign up and the number is really somewhere between 8 and 12 million. The healthy young opting out is a major problem here. IN countries with UHC they don’t have that choice, so the total cost of care is spread among a larger and statistically healthier population. Paying $50 a month (hypothetically) for health insurance at age twenty-five may seem just wonderful, but at the age of near-Medicare eligibility it can cost you over a thousand. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/34 "2009-11-28T18:04:06Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [Study: 86.7 million Americans uninsured over last two years - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/04/uninsured.epidemic.obama/) I really don’t want to play that numbers game. I can drop countering cites on you all day. The fact is the uninsured are a huge problem and it is growing. More than that, people who think they are insured often find out that are not because the insurance company will weasel out of paying , even though they have been collecting premiums to do so. The numbers are getting bigger every day. It is shameful and unworthy of America. You don’t want to play the numbers game because your numbers are bullshit and you know it. Your cite doesn’t even address the issues I mentioned. Please…drop away. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/35 "2009-11-28T18:07:33Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > The healthy young opting out is a major problem here. IN countries with UHC they don’t have that choice, so the total cost of care is spread among a larger and statistically healthier population. Paying $50 a month (hypothetically) for health insurance at age twenty-five may seem just wonderful, but at the age of near-Medicare eligibility it can cost you over a thousand. What is your point? My point is that the healthy young who choose not to purchase insurance should not be counted as the uninsured who cannot afford insurance. Who can blame the young for wanting to keep their money and paying for care as they need it. This is a gamble for the young but we have the freedom to make our own choices. ---
**Author:** ![independentminded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed8c4c/32.png) [@independentminded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/independentminded)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/36 "2009-11-28T18:09:40Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > If you have insurance, you get preventative care and don’t get as seriously ill as often. When you do get sick, if you have insurance you go in and have your minor illness taken care of. When you don’t, you end up in the ER with pneumonia. Many people lacking coverage aren’t unemployed - my boyfriend has no insurance because he’s a hardworking penurious entrepreneur and he can’t afford it. If he gets sick he can’t go to the doctor and if it gets bad enough for him to be out of work too long the businesses he runs will fold, therefore unemploying other people. To be more exact; Your boyfriend can’t afford **not** to have health insurance. Moreover, neither can anybody else, really. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/37 "2009-11-28T18:43:20Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > You don’t want to play the numbers game because your numbers are bullshit and you know it. Your cite doesn’t even address the issues I mentioned. Please…drop away. No I don’t want to play the numbers game because the Fox news numbers are bullshit. It is a waste of time. Do not say why i chose not to play it. You are wrong. I think it would be a distraction from the point. Which is that our present system will bankrupt the country. We have an overpriced system that is broken. It has to be replaced. That is the bottom line. Start a thread about the numbers if you choose. Then I will educate you. But this is not the place. ---
**Author:** ![blinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/43a26b/32.png) [@blinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkie)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/38 "2009-11-28T18:46:42Z")
For what it’s worth I have a rare condition and the level and amount of care here is far less than outside the US ---
**Author:** ![independentminded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed8c4c/32.png) [@independentminded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/independentminded)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/39 "2009-11-28T19:10:54Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > No I don’t want to play the numbers game because the Fox news numbers are bullshit. It is a waste of time. Do not say why i chose not to play it. You are wrong. I think it would be a distraction from the point. Which is that our present system will bankrupt the country. We have an overpriced system that is broken. It has to be replaced. That is the bottom line. Start a thread about the numbers if you choose. Then I will educate you. But this is not the place. I dare say, however, that the health bill that was recently passed is definitely not going to work, and it won’t even be a step in the right direction for replacing our present over-priced and broken healthcare system. If you can possibly get hold of and rent the film _“Sicko”_, I strongly recommend it, since it gives some real insight as to the condition of our healthcare system and compares it with other countries. Ours did **not** come out to be favorable, if one gets the drift. Btw, Democratic Congressman Dennis Kucinich was one of the few that had the guts and gumption to vote **against** this bill. Good for him!! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806/40 "2009-11-28T19:16:46Z")
[http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/10/ap/politics/main4790299.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/10/ap/politics/main4790299.shtml) Congressional budget office vs Fox news. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universal-healthcare-will-bankrupt-this-country-i-call-bs/518806.md?page=3)