# Universiality of left/right wing thought? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872 "2012-08-27T23:25:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/1 "2012-08-27T23:25:56Z")
I’m only reasonably familiar with US and UK politics, in which while the US is further to the right of the UK, the general axis on most issues is aligned the same way. In other words, give someone in the UK and someone in the US two policies, a left wing one and a right wing one (by their standards) on almost any issue, from either a UK or a US party; be that tax, defence, disabled rights, indepence of central banks, climate change, drugs, abortion, deficit reduction, funny walks… both will easily be able to place which policy is considered left wing, and which policy is considered right wing. Is that the case in other countries in general or not? And if not, are there any notable examples (e.g. the “right wing” parties supporting higher taxes than “left wing parties”) and if so please elaborate. Bonus question: If as I suspect, there are a few outlier but mostly most country’s major political parties basically place their positions in roughly the same place on these axis… has anyone really identified, to any real consensus, what makes an idea right or left wing and more particularly why supporters think this way? Bonus question 2: Any recommended reading on this matter? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/2 "2012-08-27T23:45:26Z")
Since I doubt there is any simple factual answer to this, let’s move it over to GD. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/3 "2012-08-27T23:45:54Z")
The [Political Compass](http://www.politicalcompass.org/) is fun, I can’t comment on its accuracy. Left and right are relative terms, not absolute. Look, they claim that [all those “socialist” governments in Europe](http://www.politicalcompass.org/euchart) are more to the right than left. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/4 "2012-08-28T00:01:12Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Bonus question 2: Any recommended reading on this matter? Are you looking for some sort of critique of the political economy? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/5 "2012-08-28T00:59:03Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > In other words, give someone in the UK and someone in the US two policies, a left wing one and a right wing one (by their standards) on almost any issue, from either a UK or a US party; be that tax, defence, disabled rights, indepence of central banks, climate change, drugs, abortion, deficit reduction, funny walks… both will easily be able to place which policy is considered left wing, and which policy is considered right wing. Where are you getting this from? Conservatives and liberals in the UK and US differ quite markedly from their counterparts on numerous issues. For example, read this and tell me which UK party you think it came from (redacted bits that make it too obvious): > [@](#): > > \*\*\*\* believe(s) that climate change is one of the gravest threats we face, and that urgent action at home and abroad is required. We need to use a wide range of levers to cut carbon emissions, decarbonise the economy and support the creation of new green jobs and technologies. We will implement a full programme of measures to fulfil our joint ambitions for a low carbon and eco-friendly economy. > > We are committed to optimising energy from renewable sources. In \*\*\*, we announced over £200 million of investment in manufacturing facilities at port sites and technology innovation to support the development of offshore wind power and energy efficiency technology for buildings. > > We are facilitating new nuclear power stations by removing unnecessary obstacles to investment, while ensuring there is no public subsidy. > > We will continue public sector investment in carbon capture and storage (CCS) technology for four coal- or gas-fired power stations. We have already announced up to £1 billion of investment in one of the world’s first commercial scale CCS demonstration projects at a power station. > > We will establish a smart grid and roll out smart meters. > > We will create a green investment bank to finance green infrastructure, with £3 billion of public funds leveraging in a further £15 billion of private investment. > > We have retained energy performance certificates while scrapping HIPs. > > We will establish an emissions performance standard that will prevent coal-fired power stations being built unless they are equipped with sufficient carbon capture and storage. > > We will refuse permission for additional runways at Gatwick and Stansted following our success in ensuring the cancellation of the proposed third runway at Heathrow. > > Through our ‘Green Deal’, we will encourage home energy efficiency improvements for up to 26 million homes, paid for by savings from energy bills. > > We will reform energy markets to deliver security of supply and investment in low carbon energy, and ensure fair competition. > > We will give an Annual Energy Statement to \*\*\* to set strategic energy policy and guide investment. > > We will work towards an ambitious global climate deal that will limit emissions and explore the creation of new international sources of funding for the purpose of climate change adaptation and mitigation. > > We will push for the EU to demonstrate leadership in tackling international climate change. > > We are providing £2.9 billion of international climate finance to help developing countries pursue low carbon growth and adapt to the impacts of climate change. It’s the [Conservative Party’s policy statement on climate change and energy](http://www.conservatives.com/Policy/Where_we_stand/Climate_Change_and_Energy.aspx)! ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/6 "2012-08-28T01:05:50Z")
You misunderstand me completely. I’m not saying that a Conservative in the UK is the same as a Republican in the US. I’m saying that, for example in teh climate change position the Conservative position will be more to the right than that of the Lib Dems and Labour (while UKIP will be even further to the right and Greens will be even further to the left). The surprise (in climate change) would be if the Tories were more green than the Libs. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/7 "2012-08-28T01:08:26Z")
Or put yet another way - what the flying fuck do gay rights have to do with climate change? My understanding of politics is that if you take the position of two major parties in two different countries on either of those issues, anyone will be able to identify one as being right wing and one as being left wing. \*\*What’s up with this bizarre axis that it seems you can measure almost any policy on? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/8 "2012-08-28T01:20:06Z")
A good start is the theory offered in [this](http://www.amazon.com/The-Righteous-Mind-Politics-Religion/dp/0307377903)book. Haidt argues that political ideologies flow in large part from moral intuitions that consistently differ between conservatives and liberals across cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/9 "2012-08-28T01:40:11Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > A good start is the theory offered in [this](http://www.amazon.com/The-Righteous-Mind-Politics-Religion/dp/0307377903)book. > > Haidt argues that political ideologies flow in large part from moral intuitions that consistently differ between conservatives and liberals across cultures. I was going to say the same thing. [Here](http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind.html) is is TED talk. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/10 "2012-08-28T01:53:00Z")
IMO, true Libertarians would be very left wing on gay marriage and very right wing on estate taxes. Or put a bit more generally, there are people who are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/11 "2012-08-28T02:53:04Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > IMO, true Libertarians would be very left wing on gay marriage and very right wing on estate taxes. Or put a bit more generally, there are people who are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. Which Ron Paul, Rand Paul, et al. are assuredly not. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/12 "2012-08-28T21:20:45Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > A good start is the theory offered in [this](http://www.amazon.com/The-Righteous-Mind-Politics-Religion/dp/0307377903)book. > > Haidt argues that political ideologies flow in large part from moral intuitions that consistently differ between conservatives and liberals across cultures. Ordered from amazon. P.S. Can someone report this post because I would like a mod to move this thread back to questions. It isn’t intended to be a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/13 "2012-08-28T21:24:02Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > indepence of central banks But if the banks get depenced, what’s gonna happen to all those coins? ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/14 "2012-08-28T21:34:42Z")
Copper shortage solved! It will celebrated every year on Indepence Day. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/15 "2012-08-28T21:45:40Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > You misunderstand me completely. I’m not saying that a Conservative in the UK is the same as a Republican in the US. I’m saying that, for example in teh climate change position the Conservative position will be more to the right than that of the Lib Dems and Labour (while UKIP will be even further to the right and Greens will be even further to the left). > > The surprise (in climate change) would be if the Tories were more green than the Libs. I think climate change is a bad example, because it seems to be a much less divisive issue in Europe than in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/16 "2012-08-28T23:59:20Z")
As in not really at all. That’s my point. Many things which are issues here are just not in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/17 "2012-08-29T01:02:27Z")
Jonathan Haidt claims there are a lot of consistencies across national boundaries on morals and right/left dichotomies. According to him of the 5 major morals Liberals tend to value care and fairness high and not care about the other 3, as you move to the right care and fairness go down while the other 3 (authority, purity, ingroup) go up. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/vs41JrnGaxc/hqdefault.jpg "Jonathan Haidt: The moral roots of liberals and conservatives") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs41JrnGaxc) [![](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Sya1JX9MFJw/TBLOmkqTw5I/AAAAAAAAAB8/xHQZz7AikdA/s1600/jonathan_haidt_morality_graph.png) ](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Sya1JX9MFJw/TBLOmkqTw5I/AAAAAAAAAB8/xHQZz7AikdA/s1600/jonathan_haidt_morality_graph.png) The paper Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition > **[ConsevatismAsMotivatedSocialCognition.pdf](https://psychoanalystsopposewar.org/resources_files/ConsevatismAsMotivatedSocialCognition.pdf)** > > 629.69 KB Discusses a lot of international studies on conservatives. Some traits like statism do seem confusing though. In the US there is a heavy anti-statist philosophy on the right (and arguably on the left) in Europe that supposedly isn’t the case. On edit I see a lot of other people mention Haidt’s work. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/universiality-of-left-right-wing-thought/632872/18 "2012-10-06T03:29:44Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > A good start is the theory offered in [this](http://www.amazon.com/The-Righteous-Mind-Politics-Religion/dp/0307377903)book. > > Haidt argues that political ideologies flow in large part from moral intuitions that consistently differ between conservatives and liberals across cultures. > [@Hermitian](#): > > I was going to say the same thing. [Here](http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_on_the_moral_mind.html) is is TED talk. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Jonathan Haidt claims there are a lot of consistencies across national boundaries on morals and right/left dichotomies. According to him of the 5 major morals Liberals tend to value care and fairness high and not care about the other 3, as you move to the right care and fairness go down while the other 3 (authority, purity, ingroup) go up. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs41JrnGaxc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs41JrnGaxc) > > [http://2.bp.blogspot.com/\_Sya1JX9MFJw/TBLOmkqTw5I/AAAAAAAAAB8/xHQZz7AikdA/s1600/jonathan\_haidt\_morality\_graph.png](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Sya1JX9MFJw/TBLOmkqTw5I/AAAAAAAAAB8/xHQZz7AikdA/s1600/jonathan_haidt_morality_graph.png) > > The paper Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition > > [http://psychoanalystsopposewar.org/resources\_files/ConsevatismAsMotivatedSocialCognition.pdf](http://psychoanalystsopposewar.org/resources_files/ConsevatismAsMotivatedSocialCognition.pdf) > > Discusses a lot of international studies on conservatives. > > Some traits like statism do seem confusing though. In the US there is a heavy anti-statist philosophy on the right (and arguably on the left) in Europe that supposedly isn’t the case. > > On edit I see a lot of other people mention Haidt’s work. Took a while - but I’m reading the Haidt book now. I would honestly say that it’s hugely changing the way I relate to others. Out of the three viewpoints he describes I would be the libertarian type, and there’s something wonderful about turning the contempt I feel for left and right wingers alike into a sympathy for them, they can’t help it, it’s genetic. Of course that is not how he would want his book to be taken, I’m being a bit sarky. And they would feel the same way about me, absolutely. Speaking more seriously for a moment, categorising these bizarre at first glance moral differences in the way he has done, makes so much sense. You get it, especially if you read it as a human. Once I’ve finished it and fully digested the ideas within I’ll start a thread about it. But for the meantime, thanks for this so much, it’s probably the most important book I’ve read this year.