# University shooting massacre averted in the UK **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 27, 2015, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680 "2015-09-27T10:40:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/21 "2015-09-27T15:49:53Z")
> [@Cinnamon\_Imp](#): > > So if Eric and Dylan whatever-their-names had been stopped on the way to Columbine High School, you would have been fine with them just being punished for whatever guns and explosives they were carrying without the correct permits? Was the guy “on the way” to the college when he was arrested? No? Then what is the relevance of your question? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/22 "2015-09-27T15:51:30Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Or with attempted murder…given that he planned but failed to commit the crime? Wouldn’t you think that it is hard to charge someone with attempted murder when there was no attempt to commit the murder? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/23 "2015-09-27T15:53:03Z")
> [@Cinnamon\_Imp](#): > > So if Eric and Dylan whatever-their-names had been stopped on the way to Columbine High School, you would have been fine with them just being punished for whatever guns and explosives they were carrying without the correct permits? They would have been charged with conspiracy to commit murder. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/24 "2015-09-27T15:56:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wouldn’t you think that it is hard to charge someone with attempted murder when there was no attempt to commit the murder? He was attempting to commit murder…they stopped him before he could actually pull the trigger. This is a weird point of law. If it were he and his buddy planning to muder they could be charged with conspiracy to commit. Surely there can be a charge for a lone killer? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/25 "2015-09-27T15:56:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Oh I know. Possessing five pipe bombs definitely deserves life in prison. A life sentence in the UK doesn’t usually mean that you spend the rest of your life in prison, to be clear. It does mean that you are on licence for the rest of your life, so any subsequent offence is dealt with as a parole breach, so straight back to prison. This guy will be eligible for parole after 8 years. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/26 "2015-09-27T15:56:43Z")
> [@Cinnamon\_Imp](#): > > (not that you should be killing either kind of student) Okay, I laughed at this. > [@Terr](#): > > It’s not even the sentence that is scary. It’s the people who are agreeing with it. It’s Liam Lyburd and what he was planning to do that’s scary. I admit it’s problematic. What do you do with someone who’s clearly a murderous sociopath, but who hasn’t _yet_ murdered anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/27 "2015-09-27T15:57:35Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > He was attempting to commit murder…they stopped him before he could actually pull the trigger. No, he wasn’t. Read up on what “attempting to commit murder” means in English law. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/28 "2015-09-27T16:05:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Oh I know. Possessing five pipe bombs definitely deserves life in prison. > > It’s not even the sentence that is scary. It’s the people who are agreeing with it. The article makes no mention of the number of pipe bombs. Is five or less considered non-lethal? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/29 "2015-09-27T16:07:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, he wasn’t. Read up on what “attempting to commit murder” means in English law. Your reading comprehension is poor. I said that if it were he and a friend planning these crimes they could be charged with conspiracy to commit murder. I then wondered why a lone person couldnt be charged with some varient of conspiracy…knowing it takes two to conspire. Why shouldnt he be charged with attempt to commit murder since that is exactly what he was doing? Why should an actual act of violence have to happen? Why should an innocent life be put at risk? Of course the bar for indictment and conviction would have to be high. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/30 "2015-09-27T16:31:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Without going into my opinion of UK gun laws, possession of an illegal handgun in the UK is a mandatory 5 year sentence. Not life in prison. So the 5 years of his life in prison are for possession of an illegal handgun. The rest of his life he’s there for thought crimes. I think it is very clear what you think of our gun laws. BTW did you know that possession of a bladed weapon on the street without good reason is a criminal offence here too, in fact, possession of any offensive weapon without good cause is a criminal offence. My God, what terrible people we are for trying to keep dangerous weapons off our streets! Why do you think you have any greater knowledge of the UK and its laws than perhaps myself or any of the other UK posters? Why do you fell the need to make any sort of comment whatsoever on our gun laws? You are not invited to comment, your comments are wrong and unhelpful and not wanted. You know nothing about what a UK life sentence means, and you are trying to comment on this with someone - myself who does know what it means, look for my posts and find out what I do for a living. You know jack about our criminal justice system, yet you comment as if you are informed, you are not. Do you think we just go around looking for controversial statement on social media and throw people in prison for what they say? Do you? do you really? For the whole of their natural lives? REALLY? As it happens, I also have my own views on the US justice system, about what a life sentence means there, and US gun ownership laws, but guess what, I actually don’t know enough about these subjects to comment upon matters that concern a foreign country. Oh I forgot - you didn’t realise you are a foreigner as far as I am concerned - and I forgot, you have the right to make uninformed and inaccurate statements about another country that is foreign to you. Perspective or lack of it, say what ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/31 "2015-09-27T16:32:48Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Your reading comprehension is poor. I said that if it were he and a friend planning these crimes they could be charged with conspiracy to commit murder. I then wondered why a lone person couldnt be charged with some varient of conspiracy…knowing it takes two to conspire. Why shouldnt he be charged with attempt to commit murder since that is exactly what he was doing? Why should an actual act of violence have to happen? Why should an innocent life be put at risk? Of course the bar for indictment and conviction would have to be high. Because we don’t live in “1984” word and we don’t have “thoughtcrime” - yet. But with people like some respondents in this thread, we’re definitely moving towards it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/32 "2015-09-27T16:35:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because we don’t live in “1984” word and we don’t have “thoughtcrime” - yet. But with people like some respondents in this thread, we’re definitely moving towards it. So you’re saying he’s telekinetic? He made pipe bombs, obtained a gun and ammo, knives and a machete all with the power of his mind? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/33 "2015-09-27T16:42:48Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The article makes no mention of the number of pipe bombs. Is five or less considered non-lethal? [![](https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/30/16/2AF6B66C00000578-3180181-image-a-95_1438270037737.jpg) ](https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/30/16/2AF6B66C00000578-3180181-image-a-95_1438270037737.jpg) About 4-inch long pipe bombs. Five of them. I am surprised he was not charged with possession of “weapons of mass destruction”. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/34 "2015-09-27T16:43:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Because we don’t live in “1984” word and we don’t have “thoughtcrime” - yet. But with people like some respondents in this thread, we’re definitely moving towards it. This is far more than a thought crime. The guy was taking actual physical steps to commit murder. This is a prosecution that should be supported by people who favor the private ownership of guns. He…was…actually…planning…on…murdering…people. Its far better to stop him before he acted. Now, there is room to debate whether he should be sent to prison or a mantal facility. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/35 "2015-09-27T16:51:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/30/16/2AF6B66C00000578-3180181-image-a-95\_1438270037737.jpg](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/30/16/2AF6B66C00000578-3180181-image-a-95_1438270037737.jpg) > > About 4-inch long pipe bombs. Five of them. I am surprised he was not charged with possession of “weapons of mass destruction”. Size of half a stick of dynamite. Count in the metal shell that fragments. Wanna hold on in your lap when it detonates? ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/36 "2015-09-27T17:20:00Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![yawuntz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a5b964/32.png) [@yawuntz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yawuntz)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/37 "2015-09-27T17:49:41Z")
I guess life in prison might be a tad harsh, but then - fuck him anyway. And I’m sure he’ll come out a much better person than he went in. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/38 "2015-09-27T18:01:56Z")
Well we can leave him get on with it can’t we, maybe he will learn from the tears of the mothers, that might be better then putting him in prison dontcha think? Any other bright ideas? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/39 "2015-09-27T18:05:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wouldn’t you think that it is hard to charge someone with attempted murder when there was no attempt to commit the murder? For some basic understanding of legal principle, see [this site](http://lawcomic.net/guide/?page_id=5). Its written by a laywer for non-lawyers, with simple explanations supported by cartoons and humour. You want the section on “Attempt”. You should be able to follow it on its own, but it helps if you read the sections on Mens Rea and Actus Reus first. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680/40 "2015-09-27T18:09:16Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > For some basic understanding of legal principle, see [this site](http://lawcomic.net/guide/?page_id=5). Its written by a laywer for non-lawyers, with simple explanations supported by cartoons and humour. > > You want the section on “Attempt”. You should be able to follow it on its own, but it helps if you read the sections on Mens Rea and Actus Reus first. > **[Attempted murder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempted_murder)** > > Note: Varies by jurisdiction > Note: Varies by jurisdiction > Attempted murder is a crime of attempt in various jurisdictions. In English criminal law, attempted murder is the crime of more than merely preparing to commit unlawful killing and at the same time having a specific intention to cause the death of human being under the Queen’s Peace. **The phrase “more than merely preparatory” is specified by the Criminal Attempts Act 1981 to denote the fact that preparation for a crime by itself does not constitute an “attempted crime”.** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-shooting-massacre-averted-in-the-uk/732680.md?page=3)