# University violates its pledge of confidentiality over a homophobic remark. Thoughts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271 "2008-01-20T16:58:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/61 "2008-01-20T20:26:29Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The students can whine to the administration if they want to. That’s about the extent to which their opinions need to be listened to. [/QUOTE] So, you think every instructor - professor or TA - is perfect? Maybe you’d rather have the deans sit in on classes, like principals do for new teachers. Hardly anyone couldn’t benefit from some feedback, which does not involve jumping at every suggestion. And your comment about teachers needing to inspire fear is about the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. I took classes from famous guys, one a Nobel Laureate, and none of them thought it necessary to cause fear. That’s the game of incompetent bullies. Incompetent teachers should be identified and weeded out. Or should a class just suck up and take bad teaching? ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/62 "2008-01-20T20:27:26Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Quote: > > You’re saying that if an instructor continually loses papers, doesn’t return any exam within a month’s time, is wrong on fundamental facts and/or engaged in discriminatory behaviors in the class, students aren’t qualified to note any of that? > > In my opinion, no. Bwahhh? So what you’re saying is that the students should be held accountable to high standards and the professors shouldn’t? What do you call _this_ educational theory? Intellectual mugging? And since you brought up the lowering of intellectual standards, how can you generalize your own personal experiences to the world at large. “I saw it firsthand.” Well so what? You went to a crappy school. You should have transferred, but you didn’t. Ding on you. Why didn’t _you_ speak up? Why didn’t _you_ complain to the administration? And yet you feel qualified to offer replacing evals with “whining” as a viable solution. Try learning something about education sometime, **Dio**. You might find it comes in handy when debating it. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/63 "2008-01-20T20:27:52Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] Oh, please. That’s utter and complete rubbish. In a discussion, such as this one, we understand terms to mean what the commonly-accepted usage _says_ they mean. [/quote] Sure, and I have an understanding of what “hate speech” means in commonly-accepted usage. And by my understanding, “hate speech” includes an expression of hatred against a group of people based on race, sex, religion, or sexual orientation. So for example, if somebody says “I hate black people,” that’s hate speech. Similarly, if somebody says “I can’t stand homosexuals,” that’s hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/64 "2008-01-20T20:28:37Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] Because, y’see, _my_ understanding controls. [/QUOTE] I’m going to start using that in real life. “Talk to the hand, bitch. My understanding controls.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/65 "2008-01-20T20:30:16Z")
Anyone who has done upward evaluations - or gotten them - at work know that they aren’t as anonymous as promised, especially if there are comments. But this goes over the edge. If a professor can and does identify a student by handwriting for this, who would write anything negative if there is any chance of getting the professor for another class? The student is an asshole of course, but it is not like the professor isn’t aware that there are homophobes around. I assume the student got a bad grade, for good reasons, and the prof. should be satisfied with that. Sticks and stones, etc. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/66 "2008-01-20T20:30:45Z")
Anyways, getting back to the OP. The school grants anonymity to the students in order to get their honest opinions about the instructors performance. Although not formalized in a contract, that should be the basic understanding of the students. It’s not supposed to be a platform to go on a hate filled diatribe against the professor. Once a student does that, he violates the implied terms of the granted anonymity, and it no longer applies. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/67 "2008-01-20T20:34:25Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] I asked what exactly was meant by the phrase “hate speech.” You and **dio** declined the opportunity to explain what the phrase meant, instead insisting that I already know. Ok, fine. My understanding will control. It’s as simple as that. [/QUOTE] There’s glory for you. Given that the “hate speech”–as vague and messy a term as exists in current society–is pretty clearly not “I hate you” but relies on some form of name calling and given that we are discussing a particular institution whose rules can be found and given that you started off your reply with “LOL” and then offered a fairly silly example of how you would identify “hate speech” when you have demonstrated a general awareness of American society in other threads, I drew the eminently reasonable inference that you are just yanking **Dio** ’s chain. Since the thread has already spun off into never-never-land, you may carry on with your games. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/68 "2008-01-20T20:34:45Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] So, you think every instructor - professor or TA - is perfect? [/quote] No, just that students are the wrong people to evaluate them. > [@](#): > > And your comment about teachers needing to inspire fear is about the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. I took classes from famous guys, one a Nobel Laureate, and none of them thought it necessary to cause fear. That’s the game of incompetent bullies. Incompetent teachers should be identified and weeded out. Or should a class just suck up and take bad teaching? “Fear” doesn’t have to mean _physical_ fear, but students should at least be afraid of being penalized or failing instead of just assuming that the instructors will bend over backwards to accomdate them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/69 "2008-01-20T20:36:56Z")
[QUOTE=Brail84] So for example, if somebody says “I hate black people,” that’s hate speech. Similarly, if somebody says “I can’t stand homosexuals,” that’s hate speech. [/QUOTE] More glory. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/70 "2008-01-20T20:37:24Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I didn’t say “laughable,” I said “risible.” Did _you_ mean to say somethiung else? [/quote] [No.](http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/risible) Again, what do you mean? You obviously used the wrong word, what point were you trying to make? [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] In my opinion, no. [/quote] That’s a non-response. What exactly is this ‘opinion’ based on? What makes a student incapable of commenting on whether or not a professor routinely lost papers that were handed in? Why are students ‘unqualified’ to note the facts of a matter? If the university paid an auditor to review the time it took a professor to return exams that would be more valid than a student reporting the same exact fact? [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] What are the first two words in my quoted sentence? [/quote] … So you’re admitting that you’re just bullshitting, that your claim is based on no facts, evidence or logic, and simply on the fact you like to think it? You’re not honestly engaging in the middle-school level tactic of adopting an unsupported position, and then complaining about how you don’t have to support it, because everybody it entitled to their own opinions? Yet again, since you’re real good on the first two words of what you said, but apparently having trouble with everything past the first word of my response: Do you have any proof for that, or is it just what you think? You are aware that cleaving to a specific view of a factual position, sans any actual factual support, is playing a game of make-believe? And equally defensible? [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Something tells me you don’t know what the word “analogy” means. [/quote] Probably the same thing that tells you that offering unsupported opinions in a forum labeled **Great Debates** is acceptable conduct. You might also want to look up ‘sarcasm’ along with ‘risible’. [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Likening students to “students” is not an analogy. Thanks for making my case about the dumbing down of standards, though. [/quote] In case you’re unable to understand, likening students to **soldiers** is a false analogy. Students are _students, not soldiers_. I was mocking your absurd act of comparing paying students to _enlisted soldiers_. And I pointed out that treating students as (lo and behold!) students, rather than a placeholder in a _risible_ analogy, was the way to go. Interesting, though, that in addition to being totally unable to support any of your claims with actual facts rather than simply claiming that they’re what you think, because you feel like thinking them… you also believe that even if I didn’t understand what the word “analogy” meant, that a single example would somehow make your case about dumbed down standards. This is **GD** , not **Mr Wuzzle’s Tea Party**. Opinions not backed up by facts aint worth the electrons with which they’re transmitted. And actually believing that committing the fallacy of hasty generalization backs up your position is, yep, _risible_. [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I saw it firsthand. [/QUOTE] Bull, followed by shit. You know zilch about “students these days”. If anything, you can speak to a small body of students who you saw/interacted with/had knowledge of at your specific university, whenever that was. Even for an argument as poor as yours, claiming that you ‘saw firsthand’ anything, at all, that could possibly yield a sweeping generalization of “students these days” is, you guessed it, _risible_. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/71 "2008-01-20T20:44:24Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] No, just that students are the wrong people to evaluate them. “Fear” doesn’t have to mean _physical_ fear, but students should at least be afraid of being penalized or failing instead of just assuming that the instructors will bend over backwards to accomdate them. [/QUOTE] Man, I thought _I_ had a problem with higher education! I’ve got to ask. Does your view of higher education _really_ consist of a bunch of spoiled brats who have to be cowed into utter terror and submission or they’ll run rampant around the schools in an orgy of not turning in their papers on time? Do you really think that the best teachers are those who can instill fear at a glance? Man, I don’t even want to _know_ where you went to college, because as bad as Boston colleges can be, _your_ alma mater is out of control! Colleges aren’t the real world, but neither is your view of them. Once again, you really, and I mean _really_, don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/72 "2008-01-20T20:49:05Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] There’s glory for you. Given that the “hate speech”–as vague and messy a term as exists in current society–is pretty clearly not “I hate you” [/quote] Are you seriously claiming that “I hate blacks” does not qualify as “hate speech”? Anyway, it’s a little late for you to be arguing that the phrase “hate speech” is vague and messy. You already claimed that I know what it means. > [@](#): > > but relies on some form of name calling Oh really? Suppose a student says the following: > [@](#): > > “Teacher X is completely incompetent. I hope he chokes on a dick, gets AIDS and dies. To hell with all gay teachers who are terrible with their jobs and try to fail students!” I suppose that’s not “hate speech,” hey? > [@](#): > > and given that we are discussing a particular institution whose rules can be found I have no idea if the institution in question has a rule about “hate speech.” **Diogenes** brought up the phrase, not me. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/73 "2008-01-20T21:32:08Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] Correction retracted. I wonder where the OP got the idea that the professor was lesbian? [/QUOTE] I am the OP, and in retrospect I have no idea. I have a vague impression that the feminine pronoun was used in the print version of the article, which is what I read, but I don’t have the NYT Magazine with me so I can’t check. Certainly I could have been mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/74 "2008-01-20T23:04:51Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Are you seriously claiming that “I hate blacks” does not qualify as “hate speech”? [/quote] No name calling. No attribution of negative qualities to a group. No expression of ill intent toward a group or its members. Simple declaration of personal feelings. Nope. Not hate speech. [QUOTE=brazil84] Anyway, it’s a little late for you to be arguing that the phrase “hate speech” is vague and messy. You already claimed that I know what it means. [/quote] I did not **argue** that it was vague and messy; I **acknowledged** that it is vague and messy and I assert that despite those negative aspects, a general understanding of hate speech is possessed by any functionally literate adult member of American society in 2008. [QUOTE=brazil84] Oh really? Suppose a student says the following: > [@](#): > > “Teacher X is completely incompetent. I hope he chokes on a dick, gets AIDS and dies. To hell with all gay teachers who are terrible with their jobs and try to fail students!” I suppose that’s not “hate speech,” hey? [/quote] Wishing ill on someone including making derogatory comments about them that includes a specific reference to their purported membership in a perceived group? That would seem to meet most understandings of hate speech. The student then followed up with the comment using the derogatory “fags.” That is a pretty clear case of name calling. I am not really on **Dio** ’s side of this fight. I just found your approach with the seemingly disingenuous _Whatever is hate speech?_ claim to challenging him along with your fairly silly example to be a rather ill-advised hijacking of the thread. Of course, now **Dio** , himself has made sufficient outrageous statements inviting challenge and retort from so many quarters that the thread is pretty tattered. I’d already said that I was not going to stand in the way of your hijack. - ::: shrug ::: \* ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/75 "2008-01-20T23:17:12Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] No name calling. No attribution of negative qualities to a group. No expression of ill intent toward a group or its members. Simple declaration of personal feelings. Nope. Not hate speech. [/quote] Well, then I guess you were wrong when you claimed that I know what hate speech is. Because to me, “I hate blacks” is hate speech and I understand that phrase. > [@](#): > > Wishing ill on someone Is not the same thing as name-calling. Earlier you seemed to be imposing a “name-calling” requirement on hate speech. > [@](#): > > I just found your approach with the seemingly disingenuous _Whatever is hate speech?_ It was a perfectly reasonable question. **Diogenes** seemed to be saying that breaking confidentiality is acceptable, even if there is no threat made, if there is “hate speech.” I wanted to know what he means by “hate speech.” ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/76 "2008-01-20T23:18:27Z")
Are you saying that “name-calling” is part of the defintion of hate speech? Whatever happened to the “sticks and stones” adage most of us grew up with? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2008, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/77 "2008-01-20T23:24:26Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] No, just that students are the wrong people to evaluate them. [/QUOTE] The students are **exactly** the people to be evaluating them. Because they are, you know, **the paying customer**. If my tuition is paying some morons salary, it is entirely within my rights and responsibilities to make sure that Administration knows the person is incompetent, and if enough students bitch, to can the boob. I’m the one paying the money. “He who pays the piper” and all that. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2008, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/78 "2008-01-21T01:00:05Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Are you saying that “name-calling” is part of the defintion of hate speech? [/quote] I don’t know if this question is addressed to me. One man’s hate speech is another man’s . . . not hate speech. **Diogenes** apparently believes that it’s ok for colleges to break confidentiality and punish people who put “hate speech” on class evaluations. It’s not entirely clear what he means by “hate speech,” but he and **tomndebb** both assure me that I know. Except when I don’t. Or something like that. > [@](#): > > Whatever happened to the “sticks and stones” adage most of us grew up with? There’s a corollary to that adage: Never piss off “the man.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2008, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/79 "2008-01-21T01:00:48Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The students are not qualified to have an opinion on an instructor’s performance. The instructors are not there to be the students’ friends or den mothers. I think student evaluations have the effect of dumbing down the instruction, easing requirements on students and devaluing college degrees. Students should be treated like garbage and driven like slaves, in my opinion. Treating thjem like equal human beings to the instructors is a mistake. An instructor who never inspires hatred or fear is not doing his job right. College isn’t kindergarten and students should not be catered to or have their self-esttem stroked. [/QUOTE] Wow, that was a mouthful. Because you went to some goofball college you think students are incapable of providing feedback? And by extension instructors should instill hatred and fear in students in an effort to make them smarter? Should we assume all the students from your college are incapable of constructive opinion or do you have a list of names for us to follow? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271/80 "2008-01-21T01:06:16Z")
**Diogenes the Cynic** , what is this nonsense about students learning from teachers they hate? I can accept that students can learn from teachers they fear. The best professor that I ever had did not allow me to breathe for the first two weeks in his classroom, but I didn’t stop trembling until near the end of the third quarter. That was forty-six years ago and I still keep up with him. But it is rare that a student learns much from a teacher she or he hates. If the student is learning, any resentment toward the professor tends to go away. I haven’t run across any exceptions in my career though I will leave the door open for an exception or two. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/university-violates-its-pledge-of-confidentiality-over-a-homophobic-remark-thoughts/434271.md?page=5)