# Unleash the Mind **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579 "2012-08-25T04:28:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/41 "2012-08-26T07:23:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Ah, the ennui will descend like the smoke from an aging courtesan’s cigarette, filled with the bleakness of the shattered promises of a long-forgotten youth. Excellent! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/42 "2012-08-26T08:33:10Z")
And the Algerian monkey dispassionately clashing his cymbals for the pittance of a tourist’s passing interest pictures the African sun of his infancy and thinks it a dream. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/43 "2012-08-28T01:14:30Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > **John Mace** : Really? The belief in creationism completely invalidates anything a person has to say, even on non-religious subjects? Do you extend that to all religious people? Or is it okay to believe that a jealous God sent his only son to Earth to ‘save’ mankind by exhorting them to love their God lest they be smited and burned in hell by a fallen angel, so long as you don’t also believe in intelligent design? Just where is the John Mace limit that renders a person’s thoughts on any subject completely invalid? You don’t think that a person who’s willing to ignore science and evidence in favor of ideology in one area might be equally susceptible to ignoring science and evidence in favor of ideology in another area? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/44 "2012-08-28T06:07:40Z")
In extremes, yes. But people are also very good at compartmentalizing. There are a lot of brilliant scientists who are also religious. Frankly, I’m just as worried about people who believe in ESP, the power of crystals, horoscopes, Tarot, or any number of other wacky beliefs that large percentages of the population hold. If we’re going to start disqualifying people from public debate if they hold any of these beliefs, it’s going to be a pretty small debate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/45 "2012-08-28T07:24:29Z")
If we worship at the Altar of the Free Market, shouldn’t the first thing we do be to cut out the beating heart of Microsoft and offer it up as a sacrifice to our God? Let’s restore free market competition to computer operating systems. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/46 "2012-08-28T12:13:44Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I read it and I feel like I just watched someone masturbate. Nailed it. What a colossal bore of an article. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/47 "2012-08-28T13:21:42Z")
There’s one phrase in particular that really bothers me in that essay: “Capitalism is the supreme expression of human creativity and freedom…” WTF? Really? Of all the wondrous things that mankind has done, the conservatives’ ideal of an economic system reigns supreme over all other endeavors? Since this is a witnessing thread, I think to value an economic system over art as the “supreme expression of human creativity and freedom” is to lead a life devoid of any soul at all. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/48 "2012-08-28T13:30:20Z")
And by the way, what’s with the criticism of the criticism of how American Indians and Palestinians have been treated? Where’s the “empathy and benevolence” towards those two groups that capitalism was supposed to have instilled in the author? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/49 "2012-08-28T13:32:13Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > …people are also very good at compartmentalizing. There are a lot of brilliant scientists who are also religious. Quite true. And in their particular field of science they are worth listening to. George Gilder however is not trained in economics, but is a multi-level crank, so your analogy isn’t so hot. > [@](#): > > The reason capitalism works is that the creators of wealth are granted the right and the burden of reinvesting it. Anyone else getting an echo of Rudyard Kipling here? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/50 "2012-08-28T17:42:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > There’s one phrase in particular that really bothers me in that essay: “Capitalism is the supreme expression of human creativity and freedom…” > > WTF? Really? Of all the wondrous things that mankind has done, the conservatives’ ideal of an economic system reigns supreme over all other endeavors? Since this is a witnessing thread, I think to value an economic system over art as the “supreme expression of human creativity and freedom” is to lead a life devoid of any soul at all. Yes, it’s just foolishness. Capitalism isn’t a moral system. It’s just an economic process that works pretty well. Assigning moral worth to it is like claiming that you’re a better person because you believe in chemistry. Besides this isn’t about capitalism and the free market. As I pointed out in my previous post, a lot of the worshipers don’t even know what it is they’re praying to. What this is, is plutocracy. The idea that some people have that rich people are better than the rest of us and anything they do must be okay. Tax cuts for the rich? Government monopolies are bad but private monopolies are good? Government spending is bad except when it’s defense spending? Estate taxes are the ultimate evil? These ideas aren’t consistent with capitalism or the free market. But they’re consistent with plutocracy. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/51 "2012-08-28T18:50:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If we worship at the Altar of the Free Market, shouldn’t the first thing we do be to cut out the beating heart of Microsoft and offer it up as a sacrifice to our God? Let’s restore free market competition to computer operating systems. 😃[The article I linked to earlier](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/03/the-market-as-god/306397/?single_page=true) also makes the analogy between religious faith and post-rational faith in markets. Adam Smith himself argued strongly against monopolies in his writings, yet today’s American right-wingers seem to love monopolies like Microsoft. That, and their refusal to discuss carbon taxes or worker-equity tariffs, make it clear that the Dog-Eat-Dog is more important to them than the Capitalism in their Dog-Eat-Dog Capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/52 "2012-08-28T20:26:35Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > In extremes, yes. But people are also very good at compartmentalizing. There are a lot of brilliant scientists who are also religious. I wonder exactly what you’d consider an extreme. In this particular case, we’re not dealing with an unfalsifiable religious belief, like original sin, or the immaculate conception. Most religious beliefs are not directly contradicted by hard evidence. Creationism is, to a staggering degree. And over and above that, we’re not talking about someone who’s an expert in, say, engineering, and happens to belong to a church that espouses creationism. We’re talking about someone who’s _main field of expertise_ is creationism. This is a guy who’s central accomplishments _require_ either a total lack of an ability for rational thought, or a willingness to engage in deliberate and calculated dishonesty. Given that, I think it is entirely reasonable to view anything he has to say with a very high degree of skepticism. He’s demonstrably an unreliable source of information. I wouldn’t trust anything he has to say, on any subject, without verification from a secondary source. > [@](#): > > Frankly, I’m just as worried about people who believe in ESP, the power of crystals, horoscopes, Tarot, or any number of other wacky beliefs that large percentages of the population hold. If we’re going to start disqualifying people from public debate if they hold any of these beliefs, it’s going to be a pretty small debate. To my knowledge, there is no major political movement to have tea leaf reading taught in our nation’s public schools, so my concerns about creationism becoming more mainstream are bit more severe. That being said, if I presented a paper extolling my ideal economic system that was penned by someone who’s chief accomplishment in life was being the proprietor of Madame Zenka’s House of Mysteries and Shiatsu Massage Parlor, I wouldn’t expect anyone to take me very seriously, either. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/53 "2012-08-28T20:31:11Z")
Formerly libertarian but now merely disaffected, the pain of many repeated mistakes have convinced me of two things: the value of precision in thinking/writing and of humility when addressing one’s opposition. Lack of precision leads to the adoption of poorly considered ideas, heaping half-truths atop misunderstandings and ignoring the the dissonance that ensues. Lack of humility makes it far too easy employ such ideas when expressing sweeping mischaracterizations of the opposition. The linked essay is a bunch of wish-washy purple prose that uses a lot of words to say very little of value. And it’s too smugly, self-assuredly written to begin a mutually-beneficial discussion. Some part of me would love to recapture the fervor of my youth by really believing in an ideology, but that’s not “how the other side thinks” — that’s meandering prose-as-poetry, and its supply-side twist isn’t even that popular these days among the right-leaning. > [@septimus](#): > > Adam Smith himself argued strongly against monopolies in his writings, yet today’s American right-wingers seem to love monopolies like Microsoft. Well, FWIW, to my knowledge Smith wrote primarily about monopolies established and abetted by the state. With respect to the Microsoft case it isn’t at all clear to me that his position would be any closer to the American left than its right, although of course he wouldn’t be “Yay Monopoly!” (as I was in my Randian phase way back when United States v. Microsoft was big news). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/54 "2012-08-28T21:40:28Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Well, FWIW, to my knowledge Smith wrote primarily about monopolies established and abetted by the state. With respect to the Microsoft case it isn’t at all clear to me that his position would be any closer to the American left than its right, although of course he wouldn’t be “Yay Monopoly!” (as I was in my Randian phase way back when United States v. Microsoft was big news). When Smith wrote _“People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public”_ he wasn’t talking about some government conspiracy. Smith believed in a free market - economic competition. He’d be appalled by Microsoft. Like I posted above, modern conservative economics has very little to do with capitalism or the free market. The central pillar of modern conservative economics is “wealth makes right” - anything else is brought out when it supports that principle and discarded when it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/55 "2012-08-29T05:48:39Z")
I think you’re seeing a shift in conservative thought right now. I’m hearing a lot more chatter among Republicans calling out big business, big banks, and other special interests as crony capitalists. And to the extent that there might be any overlap between the beliefs of conservatives, liberals, and libertarians, it’s in that they’re all coming to believe that the intersection of big business and big government is not a good thing. They differ on how to fix the problem, but I don’t think the issue is still seen as black-and-white as, “business vs government”, although I’ll agree that in the past it has been. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/56 "2012-08-29T05:58:14Z")
Based on the excerpts you’ve provided, the essay consists entirely of hackneyed strawmanning. I may pay more attention to it tomorrow, but at first blush it doesn’t seem very compelling. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/57 "2012-08-29T06:00:46Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And to the extent that there might be any overlap between the beliefs of conservatives, liberals, and libertarians, it’s in that they’re all coming to believe that the intersection of big business and big government is not a good thing. They differ on how to fix the problem, but I don’t think the issue is still seen as black-and-white as, “business vs government”, although I’ll agree that in the past it has been. We have big government now? Seems pretty hobbled to me, what with lack of regulation and low tax rates and major pressure against raising them. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/58 "2012-08-29T06:15:40Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What does “it” refer to in the last sentence just quoted? Wealth in which sense? It has to be wealth in the “inventory” sense to have anything to do with any ongoing policy debate he’s addressing. But letting “wealth” mean [ithat\* goes against what he _just said_ in the prior sentence. The statement is just a rephrasing of “the whole is greater than the sum of its parts”. One can view a house as a just a heap of wood and metals. But it’s worth more as a house. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/59 "2012-08-29T10:22:11Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’m hearing a lot more chatter among Republicans calling out big business, big banks, and other special interests as crony capitalists. But not to the point of enacting regulations that would actually do anything. A good scolding is all that is required, because banks always respond to public shaming. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579/60 "2012-08-29T12:04:48Z")
The difference between Intelligent Design and this article is that this article is founded upon a belief in a whole group of people who don’t exist in reality. Sam, if you’re really interested in having some meaningful dialogue, you’re going to have to educate yourself about the! real world. Otherwise you may as well just talk with others at Free Republic about all the Moochers and Looters. I do appreciate your candid acknowledgement that this represents your mentality. I would suggest that when you are about to conceive of a model that explains the data (in this case the fact that every indicator of the US economy does better under Democratic leaders) you may actually grow. Until then, this is very much like the ID crackpots arguing against the empirical evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unleash-the-mind/632579.md?page=4)