# unlucky hands of poker **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [December 14, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687 "2004-12-14T00:22:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![saluki\_fan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@saluki\_fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saluki_fan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/1 "2004-12-14T00:22:11Z")
I was playing poker over thanksgiving break and I made a comment about a dead man’s hand. Now I know that there is a hand in poker, perhaps not known as a deadman’s hand, but something; I just can’t think of what it is. The guys around the table laughed and thought I was stupid, so please help me prove them wrong. I believe the legend goes something like a person got a good hand and then right before he laid it down he was shot (or something along those lines). Am I just imagining this, or did this really happen and there is a hand out there that is known to be unlucky? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/2 "2004-12-14T00:32:55Z")
The “Deadman’s Hand” is supposed to be Aces over Eights. Wild Bill Hickok was supposedly shot while hold it. I believe that the story is apocryphal. ---
**Author:** ![Crimmsy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Crimmsy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crimmsy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/3 "2004-12-14T00:33:02Z")
> [@saluki\_fan](#): > > I was playing poker over thanksgiving break and I made a comment about a dead man’s hand. Now I know that there is a hand in poker, perhaps not known as a deadman’s hand, but something; I just can’t think of what it is. The guys around the table laughed and thought I was stupid, so please help me prove them wrong. I believe the legend goes something like a person got a good hand and then right before he laid it down he was shot (or something along those lines). Am I just imagining this, or did this really happen and there is a hand out there that is known to be unlucky? > > Thanks. The Dead Man’s Hand is the hand that Wild Bill Hickok was allegedly holding when he was shot on 2 Aug 1876. [The Master speaketh](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_307.html) [Another cite](http://pokermag.com/ManageArticle.asp?C=90&A=31) ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/4 "2004-12-14T00:35:37Z")
Oh, here’s a link to a quesion on [Ask.com](http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20000929.html): > [@](#): > > According to legend, this was the hand Wild Bill Hickok was holding on August 2, 1876 at the Saloon No. 10 in Deadwood, South Dakota, when he was shot in the back of the head and killed, hence the name. I’d wager it’s been discussed here at least once, and wouldn’t be surprised if Cecil’s taken a crack at it. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/5 "2004-12-14T00:40:24Z")
Also, the fifth card is the 2 of spades, otherwise it’s not a “true” Deadman’s Hand. ---
**Author:** ![filmyak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@filmyak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmyak)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/6 "2004-12-14T00:45:35Z")
It’s two pairs, aces over 8’s. And the story is absolutely true (or so I’ve heard). Heh. Anyway it was Wild Bill Hickock’s hand right before he got shot. Googled it and found this: [http://www.robohoo.com/poker\_26.html](http://www.robohoo.com/poker_26.html) This site says the story is legend, but I’ve heard it as confirmed in many other places. YMMV. Also: [http://www.pokernews.info/pokerterms/dead-mans-hand.html](http://www.pokernews.info/pokerterms/dead-mans-hand.html) Two pair - Aces and Eights (The hand Wild Bill Hickock was holding when Jack McCall shot him in the back). ---
**Author:** ![filmyak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@filmyak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmyak)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/7 "2004-12-14T00:48:28Z")
Crap, I replied and all of a sudden there were 5 other ones. =) As for the 5th card, no one knows for sure what it was. See previous link for possible options. ---
**Author:** ![Tammi\_Terrell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Tammi\_Terrell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tammi_Terrell)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/8 "2004-12-14T02:53:47Z")
Beware the Dead Man’s Hand . . . > [@](#): > > [As reported in _Western Folklore_ 10: 178, 1951.] > > \*\*The Eugene, Oregon, _Register-Guard_ has this story, date-lined Vancouver, B.C., December 20, 1950: > > _William Holma, 63, looked at his poker hand Tuesday night at the Broadway Social Club and slumped over the table. He held the traditional Chisolm cattle trail “dead man’s hand” – three eights and a pair of aces. He died a few hours later in the hospital. The winning hand was worth $10.62._\*\* Worse yet, it was worth $10.62 _Canadian_. – Tammi Terrell ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/9 "2004-12-14T06:32:21Z")
Since this one is about a question that Cecil covered, let’s move it to CoCC. **samclem** GQ moderator ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/10 "2004-12-14T06:48:23Z")
> [@filmyak](#): > > It’s two pairs, aces over 8’s. It’s aces _and_ eights. Aces _over_ eights would be a full house. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/11 "2004-12-14T06:55:20Z")
Sorry to disappoint everyone(including Cecil), but there is **absolutely NO proof** about any of the cards in Wild Bill’s hand. None. Not about **any** of the cards. There are NO contemporary accounts concerning the shooting that mention the cards. Hickock’s biographer, Rosa, said in his 1974 book something to the effect of “the identity of the cards is in dispute.” Cecil wrote his column before Rosa’s book. Hickock was killed in 1876. The oldest print reference to " a dead man’s hand" in cards is in 1888, and it indeed said “aces and eights” but said nothing about the origin of the phrase. Another cite from 1891 > [@](#): > > I have drawn a pair of sevens. I now hold jacks full on red sevens. It is a fatal hand. No one ever yet held it and left the card table alive. … 1895 > [@](#): > > Finally Cherokee said:‘I ain’t aimin’ to invest Wolfville in no superstitious fears, but I jest chronicles as a current event how I was > settin’ into a little porker [sic] last night an’ three times straight I > picks up “the hand the dead man held” – jacks up on eights, an’ it win > every time.’ ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/12 "2004-12-14T15:50:27Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > It’s aces _and_ eights. Aces _over_ eights would be a full house. No, aces _full of_ eights would be a full house. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/13 "2004-12-15T15:46:58Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > No, aces _full of_ eights would be a full house. As InvisibleWombat said, Aces Over Eights is a full house. The “over” order distinguishes it from Eights Over Aces, which is a weaker full house. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/14 "2004-12-15T15:54:51Z")
It’s AA and the idiot who calls all in with 2 4 off proceeds to flop 442. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/15 "2004-12-15T15:57:58Z")
> [@don't ask](#): > > It’s AA and the idiot who calls all in with 2 4 off proceeds to flop 442. except when the turn and river are A and A 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/16 "2004-12-15T15:59:44Z")
turn OR river ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/17 "2004-12-17T02:37:07Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > No, aces full of eights would be a full house. > [@](#): > > As InvisibleWombat said, Aces Over Eights is a full house. The “over” order distinguishes it from Eights Over Aces, which is a weaker full house. Stop–apparently, you’re _both_ right. I was all about to weigh in on **Otto** ’s side, when I went looking for cites and found many conflicting definitions: From [PokerNews Info](http://www.pokernews.info/pokerterms/aces-over.html): > [@](#): > > Aces Over > > 1. Pairs, one of which is aces. 2) A full house with aces over any pair. From [Westside Poker Club](http://www.westsidepokerclub.com/public/poker.nsf/plinks/JPOT-5ZTNP5): > [@](#): > > The river brought another A, flipping his full to Aces full of eights. These cites were only two of literally dozens of references to a hand of A-A-A-8-8 as alternatively “Aces full of eights” and “Aces over eights.” Guess there’s no solid answer here. ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/18 "2004-12-17T03:47:18Z")
I don’t think aces and eights is actually considered to be an _unlucky_ hand (it’s middling decent in draw poker), it’s just called the dead man’s hand because of the Bill Hickock association, not because you’re gonna die soon. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unlucky-hands-of-poker/279687/19 "2004-12-17T13:42:15Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Stop–apparently, you’re _both_ right. I was all about to weigh in on **Otto** ’s side, when I went looking for cites and found many conflicting definitions: I don’t think anyone was disagreeing with Otto’s term for it, it was just his claim that Aces Over Eights did not designate a full house. As you’ve found out, people also often refer to a two pair in that fashion–but it’s redundant in that case, since the order of “Over” is determined by the card rank. A full house can have Eights Over Aces, but two pair cannot.