# Unmarried Parents in the US **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 14, 2008, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694 "2008-11-14T12:35:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/1 "2008-11-14T12:35:06Z")
In another [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10446806#post10446806) on how the US military treats homosexuals **Hostile Dialect** happened to mention that they also look down on having children out of wedlock. He (she?) also said that this was viewed as a bad thing in the States generally: > [@How seriously does the US military take 'homosexual misconduct'?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-seriously-does-the-us-military-take-homosexual-misconduct/472691/8): > > Culturally speaking, it is sometimes considered to be a mark of poor virtue and decision-making skills, on a par with alcoholism or a gambling problem. It’s definitely a hot gossip item at the very least. I really wasn’t aware of this. As **Illuminatiprimus** says in that thread, it’s really not a big deal in the UK. Hell, it’s not even that big a deal in the boondocks of Greece, where I’m currently living. Is this accurate? I’m interested in other views from Americans. I’ve been with my partner over 10 years. We have bought a house together and we chose to get pregnant and now have a two year old. We’ve never seen the point in getting married. How would we be regarded in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/2 "2008-11-14T12:54:32Z")
He, thanks. I’ll take the hijacky post I was going to add to that thread, and post it here instead: > [@Incref](#): > > When we’re talking out of wedlock are we literally talking not married or not in serious long term relationship? I mean I can _almost_ understand the stigma associated with an accidental pregnancy with someone you’ve only been dating a little while but I can’t say I would question a persons morals if they had a child with a long term partner. Not married. Again, it’s a cultural thing. The idea that it should be no big deal is as foreign to us as the idea that it _is_ a big deal is to you. Just to make this a bit clearer, we tend to perceive nonmarried heterosexual parents not as secure adults who have decided to eschew formal recognition of their bond, but as people who suffered a serious lapse in judgment as teenagers or young adults and now struggle to support themselves, each other and the children. That’s not because we’re looking down on the unmarried, but because people in secure relationships here tend to view marriage as a natrual step in the progression of the bond. Again, it goes back to our culture. We grow up in a society where marriage is considered the ultimate promise, and not at all optional for serious couples. To an American couple, marriage isn’t just a legal contract, it’s a necessary step in the growth of a romantic relationship. Refusing to get married is likely to get you dumped; it’s perceived as an unwillingness to commit to the person, an attempt to keep one’s sexual and romantic options open. Even polyamorous couples have an eye toward marriage at some point in their relationship, if they’re “serious”. In fact, that’s pretty much what “serious” means here, in the context of a relationship: the parties involved are thinking about getting married. * * * Since you sound like a stable family with a decent life, I doubt you’d be regarded as any lesser for not being married–it would just seem really weird to us. Whereas you say “we’ve never seen the point in getting married”, we would say, “I don’t see the point in you two **not** getting married”. If anything, some Americans might think that your husband is hiding something from you and that you, poor thing, are being strung along. Mostly, though, I think Americans would be fascinated by the phenomenon and ask you all kinds of questions. We, as a society, just don’t _get_ the idea of a committed, loving couple _not_ getting married. It just doesn’t parse. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/3 "2008-11-14T13:02:17Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > Since you sound like a stable family with a decent life, I doubt you’d be regarded as any lesser for not being married–it would just seem really weird to us. Whereas you say “we’ve never seen the point in getting married”, we would say, “I don’t see the point in you two **not** getting married”. If anything, some Americans might think that your husband is hiding something from you and that you, poor thing, are being strung along. Mostly, though, I think Americans would be fascinated by the phenomenon and ask you all kinds of questions. We, as a society, just don’t _get_ the idea of a committed, loving couple _not_ getting married. It just doesn’t parse. Hey, I’m the bloke in the relationship! And I’m most definitely not hiding anything or stringing her along! I’d still be interested to hear other views, but if there are any fascinated Americans out there with questions, feel free to ask. One quick point is that neither of us is religious. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/4 "2008-11-14T13:05:32Z")
Oops, sorry! Didn’t mean to imply that you were hiding anything or stringing her along, just saying that that’s the kind of thinking you might encounter here. It’s not so much “That’s a bit different, they’ve been together for 10 years and haven’t gotten married” as it is “Why is it taking them so long to get married? They’ve been together for 10 years, fercrissakes! What’s he waiting for?” I do have a question, actually: Aren’t you worried that, should something awful happen to one of you, the other one wouldn’t have legal recourse in making the important decisions and such? ---
**Author:** ![Queen\_Tonya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/4491bb/32.png) [@Queen\_Tonya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queen_Tonya)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/5 "2008-11-14T13:16:16Z")
I wouldn’t say everyone looks askance at it necessarily, but we don’t have any good terms for it, either. Boyfriend/girlfriend doesn’t sound right when talking about long-term partners, the horrific babymama/babydaddy implies someone you bred with but are no longer together with, life partner is usually reserved for the LGBT crowd, co-parent might be technically correct but seems like a grown up version of babymama… I guess if it were more common we’d have come up with a recognizable vocabulary for it. We have the same problem referring to any committed lovers not in a recognized marriage, though, not just ones who’re parents. Teachers and nurses at the pediatrician’s office would probably go ahead and call the parent Mr or Mrs kidslastname by default, since that happens no matter what. Common mistake with stepchildren, divorced families, married mothers that didn’t take the father’s last name, etc. **Hostile’s** scenario seems a little old-fashioned to me, you’d definitely run into it but more with older or traditional folks, not _everyone_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Punkyova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@The\_Punkyova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Punkyova)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/6 "2008-11-14T13:17:03Z")
Another point is that legally (in the US) you’re putting your child in a tough position. If you aren’t married, the child wouldn’t be covered by the father’s health insurance. Fathers usually make more money and have better benefits, so that matters. (The unmarried spouses aren’t covered either, but let’s assume they are both employed.) The father wouldn’t have legal rights about visitation, and depending on how odd the school wants to be, might not be able to sign the child out without a note from the mother. The parents also don’t have legal rights regarding each other - medical say so, visitation in hospitals, rights of survivorship to any mutually owned property, etc. By it’s very nature, that’s going to make life less stable for the child. Some of the above can be remedies by spending a lot of time and money with a lawyer, but not all, and it’s a huge hassle. Getting married takes care of it. (I’m sure there have been discussions on the boards about these issues with regard to same sex marriage if you want more detail.) Finally, in the US the fact is that unmarried relationships simply don’t last as long as married ones. Whether this is selection bias (people who don’t bother to get married don’t value stable relationships) or a response to social pressure (all of the above put more stress on unmarried couples than married couple experience) or for some other reason, I don’t know. When the relationship ends, the father is less likely to remain in contact with the child, with all sorts of emotional and financial consequences. So, given the realities of life in the US, having a child out of wedlock just isn’t a good idea for the child. Cultural biases reflect that, and having a child outside of marriage is frowned on. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/7 "2008-11-14T13:17:54Z")
Whoa, what’s this “we” shit, kemosabe? I’ve lived in America all my life, and I don’t know anyone who considers marriage to be “not at all optional”. Well, that’s not true, I know a few, and they’re generally considered hopelessly neurotic. I don’t contest that marriage is considered the norm, but among the people I know, it’s considered just that, the _norm_. Not the One True Way. ETA that, since this thread is about parenting, single and/or unmarried parents are not generally “frowned upon” in my circles either. Also, in my experience, marriage is not a good indicator of mutual parental involvement. Divorced assholes are just as likely to neglect their children as never-married assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Incref](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@Incref](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incref)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/8 "2008-11-14T13:19:36Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > I do have a question, actually: Aren’t you worried that, should something awful happen to one of you, the other one wouldn’t have legal recourse in making the important decisions and such? The USA doesn’t recognise de facto relationships? Don’t you find it a bit of an enigma that if there is such an emphasis on marriage in the USA as the ultimate commitment or a prerequisite for having children that it also has the [third](http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-by-highest-divorce-rate.html) highest divorce rate in the world? I mean it seems a bit contradictory to insist on one and be pretty casual on the other. Unless of course I am mistaken on that attitude too? ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/9 "2008-11-14T13:23:28Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > Didn’t mean to imply that you were hiding anything or stringing her along, just saying that that’s the kind of thinking you might encounter here. It’s not so much “That’s a bit different, they’ve been together for 10 years and haven’t gotten married” as it is “Why is it taking them so long to get married? They’ve been together for 10 years, fercrissakes! What’s he waiting for?” Don’t worry, I knew what you meant. In honesty I have encountered a bit of the attitude you refer to. Mostly from my Dad, who is a bit old fashioned, but also from some married friends. The friends, I think, mostly just want an excuse for a party. None of them make any kind of deal out of it. The US sounds a bit more hardcore? > [@](#): > > I do have a question, actually: Aren’t you worried that, should something awful happen to one of you, the other one wouldn’t have legal recourse in making the important decisions and such? That’s an interesting one, as I’m not sure the law (UK) has entirely caught up with the modern world. As to our daughter and our house we are joint owners of both! In the event of one of us dying we know exactly what would happen to both (this is weird to talk about). As to whether I would have the right to make decisions should my partner be on life support (getting weirder), I honestly don’t know. Maybe a UK lawyer could answer? At the end of the day I know that her blood relatives would defer to me for such decisions, and visa versa. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/10 "2008-11-14T13:31:49Z")
These cultural forces, and the practical ramifications noted by **The Punkyova** , are big reasons why the same-sex marriage debate gets so fiery and passionate here, in case any of you furriners are wondering. > [@DianaG](#): > > I’ve lived in America all my life, and I don’t know anyone who considers marriage to be “not at all optional”. Well, that’s not true, I know a few, and they’re generally considered hopelessly neurotic. I said “not at all optional” for _couples_. It’s not the One True Way–hell, I may not even be _able_ to marry the person I love, and I’m a swinger anyway–I’m just saying that it’s _generally assumed_ that marriage is the goal of dating, and that most couples haven’t “arrived” or aren’t “serious” unless they’re married, getting married or thinking about getting married. I’m well aware that there are people who aren’t necessarily caught up on marriage. That’s putting it mildly; I _am_ one. I’m just explaining our cultural norms. > [@Incref](#): > > The USA doesn’t recognise de facto relationships? That varies widely by locality. We call those common law marriages (see? the language implies that marriage is the goal) or (for us queers) domestic partnerships, and the protections of those are not as strong or as absolute as those of marriage per se. As **The Punkyova** said, these things can be resolved without marriage in the US, but being married solves the problem automatically before it comes up. > [@Incref](#): > > Don’t you find it a bit of an enigma that if there is such an emphasis on marriage in the USA as the ultimate commitment or a prerequisite for having children that it also has the third highest divorce rate in the world? I mean it seems a bit contradictory to insist on one and be pretty casual on the other. I can’t say I’m prepared to defend our society against this claim, except to say that these are intertwining social forces and those can have a nasty habit of contradicting one another sometimes. The high divorce rate is another thing that’s regarded as a social ill, one which, if you ask me, is probably caused by the over-enthusiasm of young people to get married as a means of proving to the middle-aged that they’ve “arrived”. It’s quite common for Americans to have a five- or ten-year plan for getting married and having children, even if they’re not actually dating anyone. It’s a shame, but it is what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Incref](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@Incref](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incref)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/11 "2008-11-14T13:33:50Z")
> [@The\_Punkyova](#): > > Finally, in the US the fact is that unmarried relationships simply don’t last as long as married ones. Whether this is selection bias (people who don’t bother to get married don’t value stable relationships) or a response to social pressure (all of the above put more stress on unmarried couples than married couple experience) or for some other reason, I don’t know. When the relationship ends, the father is less likely to remain in contact with the child, with all sorts of emotional and financial consequences. > . Do you have a cite for any of these? I know we’re not in GQ but these seem like pretty sweeping statements that would be hard to find figures for. I mean a marriage and a divorce are registered but you don’t call the government when you decide to start ‘going steady’ and you surely don’t give them a buzz when you’re sorting out the cd collection in to ‘mine’ and ‘the shitheads’. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/12 "2008-11-14T13:34:30Z")
> [@The\_Punkyova](#): > > Another point is that legally (in the US) you’re putting your child in a tough position. If you aren’t married, the child wouldn’t be covered by the father’s health insurance. That’s just weird. Thank god for the NHS > [@](#): > > The father wouldn’t have legal rights about visitation, and depending on how odd the school wants to be, might not be able to sign the child out without a note from the mother. Not quite sure what you mean by visitation? As far as I’m aware my rights in regards to my daughter are equal to my partners. I would be very surprised if this were not the case. > [@](#): > > The parents also don’t have legal rights regarding each other - medical say so, visitation in hospitals, rights of survivorship to any mutually owned property, etc. By it’s very nature, that’s going to make life less stable for the child. > > Some of the above can be remedies by spending a lot of time and money with a lawyer, but not all, and it’s a huge hassle. As I’ve said above I’m not sure about medical say so. The rest is all sorted and it was hardly any hassle at all, > [@](#): > > Finally, in the US the fact is that unmarried relationships simply don’t last as long as married ones. Whether this is selection bias (people who don’t bother to get married don’t value stable relationships) or a response to social pressure (all of the above put more stress on unmarried couples than married couple experience) or for some other reason, I don’t know. When the relationship ends, the father is less likely to remain in contact with the child, with all sorts of emotional and financial consequences. This is interesting if true. Can you back it up? > [@](#): > > So, given the realities of life in the US, having a child out of wedlock just isn’t a good idea for the child. Cultural biases reflect that, and having a child outside of marriage is frowned on. Do you have a personal opinion on whether this is a good or bad thing? ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/13 "2008-11-14T13:35:07Z")
> [@Petrobey Mavromihalis](#): > > In the event of one of us dying we know exactly what would happen to both (this is weird to talk about). As to whether I would have the right to make decisions should my partner be on life support (getting weirder), I honestly don’t know. I know it’s weird to talk about; I recently lost my father, and he refused to acknowledge his own mortality or to make any plans for same, leaving my mother and I (mostly my mother) to sort it all out, so this kind of thing has been on my mind lately. I would humbly suggest that if you and your SO haven’t talked this out, you really should. You never know in this world. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/14 "2008-11-14T13:38:19Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > I said “not at all optional” for _couples_. Yeah, I got that. I still don’t see much of it. I have lots of friends who’ve been together for years without any discussion of marriage. Not the majority, I’ll grant you, but still an awful lot, and I don’t hang out with what anyone would consider to be a swingin’, rule-breakin’, fuck-the-establishment crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/15 "2008-11-14T13:43:28Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > These cultural forces, and the practical ramifications noted by **The Punkyova** , are big reasons why the same-sex marriage debate gets so fiery and passionate here, in case any of you furriners are wondering. That’s interesting. I thought it was just an anti-gay thing, rather than a pro-marriage thing, if you see what I mean. > [@](#): > > I know it’s weird to talk about; I recently lost my father, and he refused to acknowledge his own mortality or to make any plans for same, leaving my mother and I (mostly my mother) to sort it all out, so this kind of thing has been on my mind lately. I would humbly suggest that if you and your SO haven’t talked this out, you really should. You never know in this world. We have talked about it, I mostly meant weird to talk about on a message board. Both of us, and our families, know our wishes should anything happen to one of us. I’m sorry to hear about your father. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/16 "2008-11-14T13:45:24Z")
> [@Incref](#): > > The USA doesn’t recognise de facto relationships? > > Don’t you find it a bit of an enigma that if there is such an emphasis on marriage in the USA as the ultimate commitment or a prerequisite for having children that it also has the [third](http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-by-highest-divorce-rate.html) highest divorce rate in the world? I mean it seems a bit contradictory to insist on one and be pretty casual on the other. > > Unless of course I am mistaken on that attitude too? No, the whole issue is tied up with America’s obsession with religion and morality. And yes, there are all kinds of conflicts and schizophrenic things in a state that tries to maintain a wall between religion and governing, and a culture with traditions based largely on religious practices. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/17 "2008-11-14T13:47:48Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > I do have a question, actually: Aren’t you worried that, should something awful happen to one of you, the other one wouldn’t have legal recourse in making the important decisions and such? Most locations aren’s as much a PITA about those things as the USA. I’ve taken people to the ER in the USA and the EMT had to strongarm the ER folks into letting me in with the patient (I wasn’t family, but I lived with the patient, her daughter was coming over as soon as she could find the insurance papers and the next nearest relative lived in Canada). In Spain, if you arrive to the ER with someone, that automatically labels you the Person Responsible. If you live with someone, that entitles you to make certain decisions; not to the “do we go for a tracheotomy or not” level unless you can prove there’s nobody else with higher rights, though. In a Terri Schiavo kind of case, there would have to be judges involved, but only if her parents didn’t say “it’s him who’s the nearest relative.” In some locations there’s such things as “registries of de-facto couples,” but the main difference between those and a “civil marriage” can be as little as the lack of a wedding. In Spain the main point for creating those was for people who weren’t able to get married to have some sort of proof of relationship (same-sex couples, couples where one or both were in the process of divorce); the “same-sex couple” reason has already disappeared. **incref** , the legal term for a “de-facto relationship” is “common law marriage.” Interestingly enough, it used to be recognized through much of the US but it’s now disappearing. It comes up frequently in these boards. You may want to do a GD or GQ search on it for more information. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/18 "2008-11-14T13:56:06Z")
IANAL but I’m pretty certain that UK law recognises de facto relationships. Obviously health insurance isn’t an issue here (and even for private cover you can add your spouse or partner pretty easily). In the UK it’s become common parlance for people to refer to their partner rather than their wife/husband and this serves as a catch all for long term relationships too. It also has the benefit of being gender neutral. I knew someone who had a child without being married to someone and they had a pretty acrimonious split, and she was having all sorts of problems with obtaining full custody so it’s definitely not the case that unmarried fathers have no rights (or even necessarily less rights) than married ones. ---
**Author:** ![Incref](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@Incref](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incref)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/19 "2008-11-14T14:04:50Z")
I have found this thread to be very enlightening! In the interest of not hijacking a second thread this evening (gosh and this one isn’t even mine!) I have opened another **[How much does US morality/religion effect your secular life?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10447017#post10447017)** I would love to hear more about these issues. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694/20 "2008-11-14T14:39:04Z")
In the thread “How seriously does the US military take ‘homosexual misconduct’?” someone claims that the U.S. is fifty years behind Europe in accepting out-of-wedlock birth. I don’t believe that. That strikes me as a (rather typical on this board) attempt to wildly exaggerate things to make a point. Somebody pick a country in Europe. What was its rate of out-of-wedlock births fifty years ago? What is the rate of out-of-wed births in the U.S. now? Let’s compare the two. I lived in the U.K. twenty years ago, and I don’t see that the rate of out-of-wedlock births or the attitude toward them as being that much different in the two countries. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unmarried-parents-in-the-us/472694.md?page=2)