# Unnatural? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2000, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248 "2000-07-11T22:41:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Farmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@Farmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2000, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/1 "2000-07-11T22:41:25Z")
Sorry if this has been posted before but… What is natural, isn’t everything natural? Just because Man has intelligance and the ability to manipulate things doesn’t mean it’s “unnatural”. Genetically engineered fruit, animals, and humans - hopefully… are natural, cancer, retardation, nuclear weapons, mutation, tobacco smoke, forest fires, taxi drivers who can’t speak english, genetic disorders, mixing elements to make news ones…natural, all natural. Should “Unnatural”, have meaning? Should it even be a word? Just because we don’t like bad things that happen to us doesn’t mean it’s unnatural. As for religion, it’s a book by a good author - that is for another thread though. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2000, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/2 "2000-07-11T22:45:19Z")
well farmer. glad you asked. > [@](#): > > Main Entry: un·nat·u·ral > Pronunciation: "&n-'na-ch&-r&l, -'nach-r&l > Function: adjective > Date: 15th century > 1 : not being in accordance with nature or consistent with a normal course of events > 2 a : not being in accordance with normal human feelings or behavior : PERVERSE b : > lacking ease and naturalness : CONTRIVED \ c : > inconsistent with what is reasonable or expected \ Unnatural is a word people use when they want to stigmatize others. You are not normal. It’s kind of like calling someone a weirdo but less 6th grade. ---
**Author:** ![Demo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demo/32/8472_2.png) [@Demo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2000, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/3 "2000-07-11T23:02:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Should “Unnatural”, have meaning? Should it even be a word? Sure it should. I’d use it more in the "unexpected, or “enigmatic” sense. Of course you could say that _everything_ is “natural”. But then, what meaning does the word natural hold? ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/4 "2000-07-12T06:24:58Z")
Is “natural” then like “common sense” in that it would vary from place to place and era to era? That would suit the definition: “inconsistent with what is reasonable or expected” for what would be reasonable to a person living in the 1400s might be might not be at all reasonable to you or me. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/5 "2000-07-12T06:55:32Z")
Yeah, none of this genetically-modified food for me. I’m gonna have me some 100% natural hybridized cross-bred corn, grown on a big plowed field and watered with irrigation equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/6 "2000-07-12T10:56:20Z")
You know, this reminds me of a discussion I once had with this enviromental type. He was going on about man destroying the planet, and I asked him - mainly as a taunt, actually - whether, if he had the possibility, he would go back 65 million years in time to stop a certain asteroid from hitting the Earth. He gave it some thought ad replied, basically, that there was no comparison between the cases - that the dinosaur-killer was natural, whereas pollution, nuclear war and global warming was not. My response was, basically: “Oh yeah? Well at least _we_ come from this planet!” Rather juvenile, I know, but my point stands. Nature is in the eye of the beholder. ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/7 "2000-07-12T13:35:06Z")
Sure, technically, everything is made from the elements of the universe, so everything is “natural”. But the current connotation (we define our own language) is the distinguish between what is man-made and what is not (or what is normal vs what is not). I guess the connotation of “unnatural” is a negative one even though “man-made” does not necessarily have a negative connotation. Alessan - if you value human survival, then pollution/etc. remains as an undesireable thing to be mitigated. If an asteroid were heading our way now, I’d want to stop it too. Some “environmental types” just over-emphasizing what is natural (good)…they can get stuck in rhetoric just as the “anti-environmentalists” can. I certainly would not want to go back to a hunter/gatherer lifestyle, but I don’t think we need to kill ourselves in the process either. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/8 "2000-07-12T14:31:58Z")
First, I agree with you completely, Phobos. I was simply restating the well-worn (but still valid) argument that we should focus on saving Mankind instead of saving “The Planet”. Earth is no danger from poor little us. Second, the logical extension of your statement - that “nature” defines all things not Man - is that nothing humans can do can ever be natural. The word Unnatural either has no meaning, or applies equally to any action you and I can ever consider doing. Which is fine by me. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/9 "2000-07-12T17:34:02Z")
I think you asteroid point is a little weak, **Alessan**. It might be compared to “naturally” occurring forest fires started by lightning as opposed to those started by human carelessness. > [@](#): > > Earth is no danger from poor little us. Well maybe the Earth’s crust is in no danger of collapsing due to human activity, but surely the biosphere–the air, water, plants, and animals–is in mortal danger from us. As for a working definition of “unnatural”, I’d say in the broadest sense it’s anything which deviates significantly from a primitive or almost animal-like state, not that there’s anything wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2000, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/10 "2000-07-12T17:58:02Z")
[quote] \*\*but surely the biosphere–the air, water, plants, and animals–is in mortal danger from us. \*\* Well, certain parts of it are in mortal danger. We could effectively remove huge chunks of life, and certainly change the ecology beyond recognition, but I doubt that we could put the actual biosphere itself in mortal danger. Extinguishing all life on earth is a task that we are simply not capable of. ---
**Author:** ![Lazarus7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/67e7ee/32.png) [@Lazarus7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazarus7)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/11 "2000-07-13T04:32:32Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Ptahlis \* \*\* [quote} Extinguishing all life on earth is a task that we are simply not capable of. \*\*[/QUOTE] oh yah?!! … don’t push me! I have a fajita and I am not afraid to use it!!! _chuckle_ MDE ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/12 "2000-07-13T05:12:40Z")
Yikes! ::Shaking in combat boots:: Well, what about salmon? Getting genetically modified salmon into the market place may mean that they will all have to be sterile, triploid, and female. Still natural? Or not consistent with normal course of events? What is natural? Isn’t everything natural? I think I don’t “like” this idea but can’t see anyway around it, which makes me not like it less! Maybe I want that negative connotation Phobos mentioned or the separation Alessan made between nature and man-made. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2000, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/13 "2000-07-13T21:10:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Getting genetically modified salmon into the market place may mean that they will all have to be sterile, triploid, and female. > -Jois And why, exactly, do you care? As long as they taste good and are disease-free, what difference does gender or genetic structure make? Genetically modified food is a technology we must pursue. It will reduce the incidence of disease, reduce the need for toxins, and reduce the cost of living. If we can make more wheat grow better and sell that wheat longer and to more places, we have a moral need to do just that. The problem of feeding all of us will just get worse. That, coupled with our housing needs and conservation needs, both land-and-resource-intensive needs, will place undue burden on the 2% of Americans that farm. Genetically modified food is the best way to alleviate those concerns before they become terminal. ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2000, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/14 "2000-07-14T03:06:25Z")
Derleth, I care, exactly, because getting all three of those things accomplished will not be easy, might be closer to impossible than just difficult or expensive or risky. Current edition of Nature has a few up to date articles about these problems. Jois ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2000, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/15 "2000-07-14T04:00:33Z")
Of course it will be difficult. Some people will have to ::GASP:: _change_. But I don’t think it will be that tough. Monsanto has already taken the first few steps. And the benefits of this research are such that even the pursuit of those goals will have profitable spinoffs, like the space program did thirty years ago. I hope that carrot is enough to drive us to a more advanced method of making food. The big stick of starvation certainly will be. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2000, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/16 "2000-07-15T20:26:53Z")
I would just like to mention Natural has also, in the course of mankind’s (unnatural?) history, been used as negative- natural as opposed to Godly, in a state of nature as opposed to a state of grace. And what about natural as in human behavior, like homosexuality being unnatural (even though animal engage in homosexual behavior. Just to open up the debate a little. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2000, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/17 "2000-07-15T23:40:55Z")
Interesting story about GMO’s: Canada’s premier science writer David Suzuki in his book _From Naked Ape to Superspecies_ tells the story of a doctoral student - not even yet a PhD - who was involved in an attempt to genetically modify a strain of bacteria in order to kill diseases in soil to improve agricultural production. Just before they were going to start a field test - i.e. introduce the bacteria into a producing field - this woman got the idea to perform a test that wasn’t in the standard repertoire of tests. Just for curiosity’s sake. She introduced the bacterium into a contained soil environment in the lab. In less than 24 hours, the genetically modified bacteria killed all of the other bacteria in the soil, rendering it incapable of sustaining plant life. This was a _non-standard test._ If it hadn’t occurred to her to not follow the normal procedure, this bacterium would have been released into the _actual soil._ It was estimated that this could have sterilized all of the soil and killed every plant on this continent in a matter of weeks. It’s not _nice_ to dick around with this stuff as though we know what we’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2000, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/18 "2000-07-16T17:25:45Z")
matt\_mcl wrote: > [@](#): > > She introduced the bacterium into a contained soil environment in the lab. > > In less than 24 hours, the genetically modified bacteria killed all of the other bacteria in the soil, rendering it incapable of sustaining plant life. > > […] > > It was estimated that this could have sterilized all of the soil and killed every plant on this continent in a matter of weeks. Killed every plant in North America in a matter of weeks? Yeah, right. And setting one blade of grass on fire will burn down all the forests in the world, and letting one drop of Polywater out of the lab will turn all of the Earth’s oceans into Jell-O. :rolleyes: I doubt that the bacterium in question would have sterilized more than the one farm it was introduced into. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2000, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unnatural/25248/19 "2000-07-16T18:13:47Z")
I alwaays find it amusing when advertisements use “natural” as a way to imply “safe”. You know what I am talking about: “This product is all-natural, so it is _good_ for you!” Of course, cynaide is all natural, and e coli. . .