# Unorthodox **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 1, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806 "2020-04-01T15:05:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/41 "2020-04-17T20:44:11Z")
How difficult would it be for an Orthodox Jew in Wyoming to do their own kosher butchering of deer or elk they hunted? I guess it wouldn’t be overly difficult in general or the Israelites would have had a bitch of a time following the rules but what would be the most difficult part of an isolated Jewish family preserving their own hunted or ranched meat? And yes, the majority of my interest in how religions manage their rules DOES have to do with food! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/42 "2020-04-17T20:56:43Z")
If one of them has received training as a kosher slaughterer, then it probably would not be so difficult. I’d say the hardest part would be trapping the animal in such a way that it is not critically injured prior to its being properly slaughtered. I suppose they could shoot it with tranquilizer darts and bring it home unconscious but otherwise healthy and whole to slaughter. Ranched meat would be extremely easy to live on, if someone on the ranch is trained in kosher slaughter. This would be for personal use only, and for those who personally trust the slaughterer; for selling on the market, the slaughtering would have to be supervised by an independent certifying agent (called a “Mashgiach” in Hebrew). ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/43 "2020-04-17T20:59:04Z")
Huh. So how did the Israelites deal with wild meat if they didn’t have enough of their own flocks and herds to slaughter? And doesn’t a fast bullet through the eye do the trick? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/44 "2020-04-17T21:12:07Z")
SmartAleq: > [@](#): > > Huh. So how did the Israelites deal with wild meat if they didn’t have enough of their own flocks and herds to slaughter? Assuming you’re referring to Biblical-era Israelites, they very much raised flocks and herds, and any trapping of wild mammals was done in a way to preserve the Kosher status of the animal, because that’s the only way they’d be allowed to use the animal’s meat (unless they were trapping them mainly for the sake of their skins). I do not know the relative difficulty of doing this for what wild mammals were normally hunted in the ancient Middle East vs. the bison or white-tailed deer or pronghorn you’d find wild in Wyoming. > [@](#): > > And doesn’t a fast bullet through the eye do the trick? For Kosher? Heck, no. The only cause of death for a mammal that would render the meat kosher would be a smooth knife cut through both the trachea and esophagus. And then the animal’s organs would need to be examined to make sure that they were not defective in a usually fatal way prior to said slaughter. Even if the bullet to the eye wasn’t the immediate cause of death, I imagine it would take out too much of the brain to pass that second criterion. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/45 "2020-04-17T21:14:23Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I’d say that the potential for love and romance drive it more than anything else. Yes, having children is important, but while pre-marital genetic testing is common in the Orthodox community, there is no sort of medical testing for fertility prior to marriage. Children are important - they’re very, very important - but men and women (even older men and women who are beyond child-bearing age) are encouraged to marry as much for the sake of finding personal “completeness” as for having children. Marriage is considered an absolute good in and of itself, not only for the sake of procreation. Yes, I understand that that is true of Jewish culture in general. However, Deborah Feldman, the person this series is (very, very loosely) based on has given interviews where she has discussed Satmar culture. It’s very clear that “replacing the six million” is a HUGE deal with these people and they’ve apparently taken it on as a major project. Sort of like the Jewish version of Quiverfull. Williamsburg supposedly has the highest birthrate of any municipality in the _entire developed world_. In 2010 it had a birthrate of 730 per 1000 women, which is high even in the developing world. Producing children, both by the statements of Ms. Feldman and by demographic facts, would seem to be a big aim of this community. I’m not saying that infertile people couldn’t marry, but given the situation in the community I’d except that someone young and infertile would suffer socially. I know Hasidic people with large families but they seem to stop between 5 and 8 kids - the Satmar seem to keep churning them out. > [@cmkeller](#): > > I could debate this, but this isn’t really the place. Could we at least agree that the Satmar Hasidim depicted in the Netflix series would, like I said, consider faith to be central to the ritual performances? No, because I actually don’t know enough about them. Are they doing it out of fear God will do something terrible to them? Do many do it because it’s what they’ve been taught to do? I have no idea what motivates some of what goes on in these communities. They are certainly not the Jews I grew up with, nor the Jews I associate with these days even if there are some cultural similarities. That’s not a judgement, that’s a statement of fact. Satmar is a different sect of Judaism, and they’re much more “ultra” than even mainstream Orthodox Jews. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/46 "2020-04-17T21:18:03Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > For Kosher? Heck, no. The only cause of death for a mammal that would render the meat kosher would be a smooth knife cut through both the trachea and esophagus. And then the animal’s organs would need to be examined to make sure that they were not defective in a usually fatal way prior to said slaughter. Even if the bullet to the eye wasn’t the immediate cause of death, I imagine it would take out too much of the brain to pass that second criterion. So I guess that, practically, there is no way for an Orthodox Jew to enjoy a nice venison stew or elk steak aside from ranched animals then. Welp, that leaves me out because one of the big attractions to me of living out in the boondocks (which I’m actively working toward) is being able to hunt on my own land for the table. I do love me some wild game, yup. Thanks for the answers, I feel all edjumacated and stuff! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/47 "2020-04-17T21:20:06Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > (One thing I learned from her books was about women wearing wigs to cover their natural hair in public. My SO is, by heritage if not belief, a Russian Jew, but he had never heard of this and when I mentioned it for some reason he insisted I was crazy because, hey, who would do such a thing? Google came to the rescue and I was able to demonstrate to him that this is, indeed, a thing.). My people are Russian Jews who came over before the Soviets took over and repressed a lot of customs. I never knew the women in that family to wear wigs, either. When they covered their heads/hair they used scarves, hats, [snoods,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snood_(headgear)#Religious_use) etc. Being dirt poor in the old country and not having money for quite some time after they came to the US might have been a factor - decent wigs are a lot more expensive than scarves. So maybe he had never heard of it and his female relatives didn’t have that practice. Jewish practices due vary a great deal from place to place. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/48 "2020-04-17T21:34:52Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Maybe the most famous convert to Judaism is Ivanka Trump. Not many people realize that Connie Chung is Jewish, but I’d rate her as more famous/better known than Ivanka. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/49 "2020-04-17T21:39:37Z")
Broomstick: > [@](#): > > No, because I actually don’t know enough about them. Are they doing it out of fear God will do something terrible to them? Do many do it because it’s what they’ve been taught to do? I have no idea what motivates some of what goes on in these communities. They are certainly not the Jews I grew up with, nor the Jews I associate with these days even if there are some cultural similarities. That’s not a judgement, that’s a statement of fact. Satmar is a different sect of Judaism, and they’re much more “ultra” than even mainstream Orthodox Jews. It’s not a matter of personal motivation, it’s a matter of, theologically, whether rituals are considered to be entirely independent of faith or whether they are inherently linked to faith. The belief that the purpose of ritual is to lead to faith is very much part of mainstream Orthodox belief, and if you consider Satmar to be more “ultra” than the mainstream Orthodox, then it is belief to them even more so. I also think that this characterization of the Satmar as a separate, “ultra” sect is somewhat mistaken, based on what are truly superficial differences. I will not deny that there are Satmar practices that are more extreme than mainstream Orthodox (e.g., modesty rules, frequency of Mikvah usage among men, some aspects of Kosher rules) but Satmars will (just to give an example) happily include mainstream Orthodox Jews in counting for a minyan, and let them lead the services, and will also pray in a mainstream Orthodox synagogue without issue. The Satmar Rebbes have sat on Orthodox Jewish councils with non-Satmar Rabbis for decades. They certainly do not think of non-Satmar Orthodox as less religiously valid, even though they maintain, within their community, some practices that can be viewed as “ultra.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/50 "2020-04-17T21:40:10Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Nothing to do with the show in question but I’ve always idly wondered–I live in an area with a fairly significant Muslim population and do a fair amount of shopping in halal butcher’s shops because it’s the best way I know to get local meat, and it seems to me (as neither a Jew nor a Muslim) that the kosher and halal requirements are pretty similar so would an Orthodox Jew be open to shopping at a halal store? Because there are way more halal stores around than anything tagged specifically as kosher so I’ve always wondered about where the observant Jew gets their food in an area without a significant Orthodox presence. Although kosher food is considered an acceptable substitute for Halal, halal is not considered acceptable for keeping kosher. They actually touched on that a bit in the Netflix series - the two men brought food with them. It is a bit of a problem at times. Although Judaism does allow breaking kosher to preserve life, skipping a meal isn’t life-threatening and I suspect most of these folks would likely skip a meal or several meals before resorting to eating something non-kosher. Of course, a certain number of them cheat even when they aren’t encouraged to by circumstance. Lots of kosher-keeping Jewish people know what bacon tastes like, even if they aren’t inclined to admit straying. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/51 "2020-04-17T21:42:49Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > How difficult would it be for an Orthodox Jew in Wyoming to do their own kosher butchering of deer or elk they hunted? I guess it wouldn’t be overly difficult in general or the Israelites would have had a bitch of a time following the rules but what would be the most difficult part of an isolated Jewish family preserving their own hunted or ranched meat? It’s damn hard to hunt and kill wild animals in a manner that leaves them kosher, at least for mammals. Which probably had a lot to do with ancient Israelites being so big on herding domestic animals. Fish is less problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/52 "2020-04-17T21:49:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Not many people realize that Connie Chung is Jewish, but I’d rate her as more famous/better known than Ivanka. I can’t recall the last time I heard anything about or from Connie Chung. Is she on TV anywhere now? Looks like her last TV job was 14 years ago and she’s 73 so she may be retired. [Connie Chung - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connie_Chung) ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/53 "2020-04-17T22:19:37Z")
SmartAleq: > [@](#): > > So I guess that, practically, there is no way for an Orthodox Jew to enjoy a nice venison stew or elk steak aside from ranched animals then. I did, earlier, suggest the option of hunting them with tranquilizer darts and then slaughtering them kosher. Broomstick: > [@](#): > > Although Judaism does allow breaking kosher to preserve life, skipping a meal isn’t life-threatening and I suspect most of these folks would likely skip a meal or several meals before resorting to eating something non-kosher. Or, even more likely, eat vegetarian or pescatarian. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/54 "2020-04-17T22:35:52Z")
Even vegetables, fruit, grains, dairy, and fish have rules to adhere, like not contacting any _traif_ anywhere a long the line from origin to table. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/55 "2020-04-17T22:37:48Z")
Yes, but easy ones to follow as an individual in the absence of dedicated Kosher communal resources. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2020, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/56 "2020-04-19T04:38:33Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > Could a convert come to THAT particular sect though? They were suspicious of Esty simply because her mother left even though she was IN their group. I can’t see them welcoming any outsiders. > I was really put off by this sect and all it seemed like to me was a cult. They shame anyone for being different. Shame anyone for wanting more. Shame women for having hair, shame women for having periods, shame women for not wanting to be baby making machines. I have no problem with Judaism and my best friend of over 40 years is Jewish and at one time I thought I’d like to convert too but you say some women want that sort of life in that particular sect. I’m wondering how many would want it that weren’t conditioned to think it was normal from birth. Looking at how Esty thought she’d be sick from eating ham, how she was just waiting for the vomit to come up because she was taught it was poisonous. Who would want that sort of life if they had a choice? She wasn’t even taught about sex. She just thought she was a cooking, cleaning semen vessel. She didn’t know kissing or affection was part of it until she got away. And I get that it’s just one side but it’s the side of someone who had been in the sect. The actor who played Moishe was raised in a Satmar community too. I read about why they need to be so insular. That’s the only way they can keep younger generations from walking away. I don’t even think Moishe wanted to come back, he just didn’t know where else to go because he was such a royal fuck-up. I’d caution you about drawing conclusions about Hasidic Jews from this single source, particularly since you seem to have misinterpreted many things. For example, Esty was not taught that ham was poisonous because it’s obviously not. Yeah, she seemed like she was about to throw up, but that’s because she was really grossed out. I’m a secular Jew, but I have read an awful lot about Hasidic and other ultra-orthodox groups. I consider myself more knowledgeable on the subject than the average secular Jew. Here are the three most important things I’ve learned: - there is a lot of variation between and even within groups. - the more I learn, the more I discover how little I know. - people are people. To that last point, Esty’s husband would have been awful in bed whether he was a Satmar, a Southern Baptist, or a surfer dude from L.A. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/57 "2020-04-20T13:08:35Z")
Would it surprise you if a secular, average American looked like they were gonna hurl if someone told them what they’d been eating is dog? I wouldnt. That’s how many Jews would react to eating a pig – it’s just not a food animal. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/58 "2020-04-20T15:16:50Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > To that last point, Esty’s husband would have been awful in bed whether he was a Satmar, a Southern Baptist, or a surfer dude from L.A. Although I agree with you in general, I will disagree with you about this point, because one of the things the Satmars (and some other fundamentalist sects – Jewish, Christian, and Muslim) do is prevent most of their members from having any access to any information from or about the world outside their insular little group. Esty’s husband is not merely bad in bed, he has no idea whatsoever about sex, other than the most basic mechanical principles: what goes where. I can’t tell from your post whether you actually saw _Unorthodox_, but it’s made clear that Yanky has never used a computer or had access to the Web. Most (if perhaps not all) Southern Baptists, and certainly all surfer dudes, at some point in 20-plus years of life, would have seen a movie or TV show, or read a book, that gave some idea about what making love is supposed to be like, and how it’s done. Yanky had no clue. In fact, it is strongly implied that when he finally has an orgasm with his wife (whose painful vaginismus has prevented them from fully consummating their marriage), months after their wedding, it is the first one he has ever had. IOW, that he had never even masturbated. So as depicted in the series, Yanky’s nearly total lack of knowledge of the facts of life is entirely due to his upbringing in the Satmar sect. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/59 "2020-04-20T15:37:15Z")
commasense: > [@](#): > > So as depicted in the series, Yanky’s nearly total lack of knowledge of the facts of life is entirely due to his upbringing in the Satmar sect. This is not unique to the Satmars, but is true of the majority of the yeshiva-educated Orthodox world. No sex before marriage, no physical contact with (non-related, non-medical) members of the opposite sex at all, no pornography, no masturbation is all part of mainstream Orthodox sexual morality, not specifically Satmar. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806/60 "2020-04-20T17:40:22Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > commasense: > > This is not unique to the Satmars, but is true of the majority of the yeshiva-educated Orthodox world. No sex before marriage, no physical contact with (non-related, non-medical) members of the opposite sex at all, no pornography, no masturbation is all part of mainstream Orthodox sexual morality, not specifically Satmar. I’m aware that those are _expected standards_ even for less extreme Orthodox Jews. And at least three of the four are common “rules” for many Christian and Muslim groups as well. However, I suspect you’d agree that quite a few people do not always follow those strictures to the letter. _Unorthodox_ made it clear that Yanky did. My main point was that unlike the non-fundamentalist world, most Satmars are not permitted to see or read \*anything \*outside the very narrow confines of their religious teachings. No movies, no Web, no novels, etc., that might have given Yanky some clue as to what making love is supposed to be like. Interestingly, he was also apparently unaware of the Talmudic teachings that it is a husband’s \*duty \*to give his wife sexual pleasure. Esty had to inform him (or at least remind him) about that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unorthodox/850806.md?page=4)