# Unraveling "the whole nine yards" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [December 27, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245 "2012-12-27T02:54:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tammi\_Terrell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Tammi\_Terrell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tammi_Terrell)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/1 "2012-12-27T02:54:02Z")
Cecil last formally discussed the origin of “the whole nine yards” in 1987. > **[What’s the origin of “the whole nine yards”?](https://www.straightdope.com/21341689/what-s-the-origin-of-the-whole-nine-yards)** In tomorrow’s print edition of _The New York Times_, Jenny Schluesser describes recent developments in “whole nine yards” research, including the identification of an earlier form. (You’ll have to forgive me, but **samclem** and I get a little shout-out here. I’m posting this because I know quite a few of you are as interested in the roots of this idiom as we are.) [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/27/books/the-whole-nine-yards-seeking-a-phrases-origin.html?ref=arts](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/27/books/the-whole-nine-yards-seeking-a-phrases-origin.html?ref=arts) A link to Fred Shapiro’s article for _The Yale Alumni Magazine_ is provided in _The Times_ piece, but it’s also at the link below. > **[You can quote them](https://yalealumnimagazine.org/articles/3587)** > > The inflation of cloud seven andthe whole six yards. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/2 "2012-12-27T03:56:25Z")
Wow, that was unexpected development… Thanks for posting the update. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/3 "2012-12-27T13:45:10Z")
Does this mean that if you go back to the 19th century, you’ll find people boasting about the whole three yards? Seriously, nice detective work. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/4 "2012-12-27T16:05:46Z")
Thanks for posting, and nice job with the digging. So if we go back far enough, will we find that the original was “the whole yard”? ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/5 "2012-12-27T17:56:21Z")
The coolest part afaic is that Samclem got a mention. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/6 "2012-12-27T18:03:10Z")
Ok, throwing something out there without support, but the article got me thinking. The NYT article states, “But then Mr. Shapiro, searching in Chronicling America, a Library of Congress database of pre-1923 newspapers, found two 1912 articles in The Mount Vernon Signal in Kentucky promising to “give” or “tell” the “whole six yards” of a story.” If the article is going to tell “the whole six yards of a story,” could the word ‘yard’ maybe have morphed from ‘yarn’, and the phrase once referred to a tale? Maybe it’s not just the number that’s changed. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/7 "2012-12-27T18:56:08Z")
Interesting reading the comments below the article, where the posters one by one completely ignore all the actual evidence and citations in the story and go on to promote their own pet etymologies for the phrase with no support or evidence. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/8 "2012-12-27T19:07:57Z")
Perhaps the popularity of this phrase increased with the inflation to nine yards instead of six. _The whole six yards_ is not as mellifluous. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/9 "2012-12-27T19:17:10Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > The coolest part afaic is that Samclem got a mention. 🙂 Yeah, but **Tammi** was the one who really took it back to the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/10 "2012-12-27T19:55:23Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > The coolest part afaic is that Samclem got a mention. 🙂 I get the impression that “Tammi Terrell” is “Bonnie Taylor-Blake”. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/11 "2012-12-27T19:57:54Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > If the article is going to tell “the whole six yards of a story,” could the word ‘yard’ maybe have morphed from ‘yarn’, and the phrase once referred to a tale? Maybe it’s not just the number that’s changed. I doubt it. Just because this one instance refers to telling all the details of a story does not mean that the expression itself originated from telling all the details of stories. “The Whole Six Yards” just seems to mean “go all the way”. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/12 "2012-12-27T21:53:47Z")
Let’s see: 1912: The whole 6 yards. 1956: The whole 9 yards. So we should have: 2012: The whole 12 yards. now. And going back: 1850s: The whole 3 yards. 1810s: The whole 0 yards. Oops. I think we’ve established a lower limit on the antiquity of the phrase. It’s simple Math, people. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/13 "2012-12-27T21:58:34Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > The coolest part afaic is that Samclem got a mention. 🙂 If you go digging through back episodes of the A Way With Words podcasts, there’s one on the history of jojos as a name for french fries that mentions both samclem and the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Tammi\_Terrell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Tammi\_Terrell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tammi_Terrell)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/14 "2012-12-27T22:34:57Z")
And **samclem** showed up in one of Bill Safire’s 2004 “On Language” columns, this time providing a very early usage of “the next big thing.” [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-5-30-04-on-language-the-new-black.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-5-30-04-on-language-the-new-black.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm) ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/15 "2012-12-28T00:31:17Z")
> [@Tammi\_Terrell](#): > > And **samclem** showed up in one of Bill Safire’s 2004 “On Language” columns, this time providing a very early usage of “the next big thing.” > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-5-30-04-on-language-the-new-black.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/30/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-5-30-04-on-language-the-new-black.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm) Yeah, I had to help out poor Bill in the old days. 😃 I also got mentioned in his NYTimes column about “Charley Horse.” ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/16 "2012-12-28T01:25:56Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Interesting reading the comments below the article, where the posters one by one completely ignore all the actual evidence and citations in the story and go on to promote their own pet etymologies for the phrase with no support or evidence. You’ll live a fuller and happier life if you just never ever read comments on any article anywhere ever. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/17 "2012-12-28T03:16:25Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > You’ll live a fuller and happier life if you just never ever read comments on any article anywhere ever. Period. Even here? Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/18 "2012-12-28T10:10:44Z")
Ain’t **Tammi** grand? (And you too, **Sam**!) In the future annals of the digging out of this phrase’s roots (and, believe it, those annals will be written) the names of **Tammi** , or rather Bonnie, and **Sam** will loom large. What a fascinating development. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/19 "2012-12-28T10:54:19Z")
Skammer writes: \> Interesting reading the comments below the article, where the posters one by \> one completely ignore all the actual evidence and citations in the story and go \> on to promote their own pet etymologies for the phrase with no support or \> evidence. Below what article? There are no comments on the article in _The New York Times_ and only one on the article in _The Yale Alumni Magazine_. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245/20 "2012-12-28T12:35:13Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Below what article? There are no comments on the article in _The New York Times_ and only one on the article in _The Yale Alumni Magazine_. The NYT article has 153 comments beneath it as of now. You may need to click something to see them. I didn’t see them at first then they appeared, although I’m not quite sure what I did. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unraveling-the-whole-nine-yards/645245.md?page=2)