# Unregistered Bull, learn to debate then come back to GD **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 18, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952 "2005-07-18T07:07:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/41 "2005-07-19T13:27:55Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Yes, which I _agreed_ with (although I consider that there is far more grave and widespread suffering in the meat-production industry which should have been tackled _first_). Here, I’m trying to determine **Unregistered Bull** ’s position and its logical consequences. > Improper behaviour which _ought not be allowed_, yes? > > I, like you, think _some_ behaviour relating to animals is **improper** or **cruel** , whatever you’d like to call it, and _should be outlawed_. We might disagree on exactly what behaviour counts. Yes, I considered leg-holds (strongly) and hunting with hounds (marginally) improper and unnecessarily cruel: snares I’ll ignore while meat production is still legal itself. The point is that, though we might place our threshold at different levels, we both agree that there _should_ be **some** threshold, however vague or arbitrary, which prevents outright torture or hazardous neglect and is enforceable by law. Agreed? Dogs shouldn’t be left in hot cars with the window rolled up. Your other stuff about trapping, hunting with dogs, or meat industry is totally absurd. Your support of legislation attacking both is an act of outright cultural bigotry AFAIC. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/42 "2005-07-19T13:31:12Z")
**Unregistered Bull** , I’m getting tired of animal rights debates, so I think I’m going to sit this thread out. But, just so you don’t feel like you’re getting ganged up on, I will say that I’m sympathetic to your position (even though I’d probably give animals slightly more extensive rights then you). Have fun arguing it. 😉 Now, I’m off to cook me some foie gras stuffed veal cutlets steamed in the tears of beaten children. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/43 "2005-07-19T13:37:17Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > Dogs shouldn’t be left in hot cars with the window rolled up. I agree, but _why not_? My answer is because there should be some legally enforcable threshold (howver vague) of **cruelty** which this behaviour crosses. What is _your_ answer? > [@](#): > > Your other stuff about trapping, hunting with dogs, or meat industry is totally absurd. Your support of legislation attacking both is an act of outright cultural bigotry AFAIC. Is it not that I have simply placed my threshold at a somewhat “higher” level than yours? Is it absurd to even have a _different_ threshold than yours? > [@](#): > > I don’t have a problem with criminalizing animal uses that can be deemed cruel by a majority of people IF AND ONLY IF those practices don’t have a base in culture, tradition, religion, sport, or practical commerce or medicine. I take this that you do indeed set a _conditional threshold_ of what behaviour towards animals _ought not to be allowed_. To mine eyes, your particular conditions present all kinds of loopholes for justifying outright sadistic torture (could a latter day L Ron Hubbard start a Church of the Feline Anal Firecracker?), but we disagree only by degree, really. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/44 "2005-07-19T13:40:35Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > To clarify, **Unregistered Bull** , you actually _hate_ people who advocate legislation aimed at minimising the worst instances of animal suffering such as crate training or neglect which directly impacts the animal’s health (_eg._ leaving a pet in a hot car)? > > You would _hate_ those who propose legislation whose “unnecessary cruelty” justification you appear to _agree_ with? (Note that this is not necessarily the same group who might advocate a hunting, fishing or meat-production ban. Note also that _I_ eat meat, and don’t mind you playing games in the woods one bit.) **Sentient Meat** , to clarify, are _you_ taking the position that crate training is cruel, or simply trying to ascertain \*\*UB’\*\*s position? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/45 "2005-07-19T13:49:24Z")
**Zhao** , just out of curiosity… You lit into **Unregistered Bull** because he did not post “reasons and evidence”. Yet [Post number 3](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6376009&postcount=3) in that thread was from **jimpatro** , who also did not show “reasons and evidence”. But you didn’t get on his case, because he agreed with you. Hmmm…it appears that as long as someone agrees with you, they get a pass. But if they disagree, you jump up and down and demand “reasons and evidence”. Rather inconsistant, it seems… ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/46 "2005-07-19T13:49:44Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > **Sentient Meat** , to clarify, are _you_ taking the position that crate training is cruel, or simply trying to ascertain \*\*UB’\*\*s position? Yes, I believe crate training is cruel and should be outlawed. I try to eat meat only from sources where some minimum benchmark of animal welfare has been credited (though I’m not ultra-conscientious by any means). However, I understand full well that **all** wild animals ultimately die in pain: I seek only to curb those practices I consider needlessly aggravate this pain. **Bull** ’s gun-hunting is fine with me, but dressing up and exhausting his quarry over several hours when a spotlight and a rifle would have done just fine falls marginally on the wrong side of my particular threshold, as does deliberately tripping animals up when a fine old rodeo show is possible without it. > [@Bull](#): > > I don’t have a problem with criminalizing animal uses that can be deemed cruel by a majority of people IF AND ONLY IF those practices don’t have a base in culture, tradition, religion, sport, or practical commerce or medicine. And just to clarify, this is still not “giving animals rights”, right? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/47 "2005-07-19T13:57:01Z")
And, incidentally, if the “culture” and “tradition” are so important, Animal Rightists (and I’m still not sure if _I’m_ classed as such yet) can argue that our countries have a long standing cultural tradition of addressing cruelty and barbarism via appropriate legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/48 "2005-07-19T13:58:30Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I agree, but _why not_? My answer is because there should be some legally enforcable threshold (howver vague) of **cruelty** which this behaviour crosses. What is _your_ answer? > Is it not that I have simply placed my threshold at a somewhat “higher” level than yours? Is it absurd to even have a _different_ threshold than yours? > I take this that you do indeed set a _conditional threshold_ of what behaviour towards animals _ought not to be allowed_. To mine eyes, your particular conditions present all kinds of loopholes for justifying outright sadistic torture (could a latter day L Ron Hubbard start a Church of the Feline Anal Firecracker?), but we disagree only by degree, really. Dogs shouldn’t be left in a hot car because it’s UNNECESSARILY cruel. It’s not only a difference in thresholds of animal treatment but a difference in respect levels of cultures different than ones own IMO. Let there be loopholes, for a society to be respectful of different human cultures, there has to be. Your religion idea certainly gives a new meaning to “Black Cats” 😃 (opular brand of US firecrackers). But I am thinking more in the terms of respecting Santería practices or, as I’ve seen on the news about Iraq, the traditional slaughter of chicken to somehow bless a new house. I do think most ideas held by AR people are absurd. Especially the more radical ones. And I can certainly be an asshole when pointing that out. But I really don’t have a problem with them having those beliefs that are so very different than mine. It’s just when they try to get the State involved in discriminatory behaviour because of those beliefs that I have problem with them. I’m all for live and let live even if I don’t like others’ lifetstyles. I just wish others would adhere to a similar philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/49 "2005-07-19T14:01:38Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > And, incidentally, if the “culture” and “tradition” are so important, Animal Rightists (and I’m still not sure if _I’m_ classed as such yet) can argue that our countries have a long standing cultural tradition of addressing cruelty and barbarism via appropriate legislation. That is a culture or tradition that harms other HUMANS. I’m all for not respecting and even legislating against a traditional or cultural practice that harms HUMANS. Animal use doesn’t fall HUMAN harm arena IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/50 "2005-07-19T14:07:09Z")
**SentientMeat** , To me, crate training is a method used to housebreak dogs, and one solution to separation anxiety. A crate trained animal is much safer to transport, both for the pet and the human driver. Many of the dog trainers I know, all of whom train only with positive reinforcement and without physical correction, advocate crate taining. [Here](http://www.barkbytes.com/training/crate.htm) is a link that discusses crate training in detail. Like anything, I suppose, it is open to abuse, but when applied properly is beneficial to both pet and owner. ---
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/51 "2005-07-19T14:14:00Z")
I always find it interesting when an op pits someone and everyone comes on and says that he is being oversensitive and then the pittee comes along and proves the op. This guy is sitting at his keyboard going LaLaLaLaLaLa. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/52 "2005-07-19T14:14:45Z")
**Bull** , OK, you’re now sounding far more reasonable than earlier in the thread, and are making an important point about interfering with religious practices: I still disagree, but you’re debating more _effectively_ than your earlier scattershot of hatred and Klansmen. Keep it up, and we’ll _all_ get more out of it. **Contrapuntal** , ah, I mistakenly took it that “crate training” meant the _rearing_ of veal calves in crates in order to keep them immobile and provide tender, fatty meat suitable for _foie gras_ and the like. If it is merely to literally train the animals so that they experience less stress in transport, that’s (marginally) OK by me (although I try to buy local). ---
**Author:** ![VegemiteMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/df788c/32.png) [@VegemiteMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VegemiteMoose)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/53 "2005-07-19T14:25:16Z")
**SentientMeat** just to clarify, **Contrapuntal** is talking about crate training **DOGS**. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/54 "2005-07-19T14:25:47Z")
I do still believe that advocating AR legislation is a form a bigotry, and I’m very sensitive about it because it does affect me personally. As to the crate training, I always thought that it was practice used mainly by urban, city dwellers where a dog was kept in in essentially a “crate” while his master was away at work so the dog didn’t tear up the apartment. In my experience, dogs don’t like terribly confined space, even dog houses. But they weren’t conditioned to them and had other sources for shade and blocking the wind. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/55 "2005-07-19T14:32:21Z")
> [@furlibusea](#): > > I always find it interesting when an op pits someone and everyone comes on and says that he is being oversensitive and then the pittee comes along and proves the op. This guy is sitting at his keyboard going LaLaLaLaLaLa. It’s only sounds like LaLaLaLaLa if you have your fingers stuck in your ears. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/56 "2005-07-19T14:37:08Z")
> [@VegemiteMoose](#): > > **SentientMeat** just to clarify, **Contrapuntal** is talking about crate training **DOGS**. Yes, I realise that now - sorry for the misinterpretation. > [@Bull](#): > > I do still believe that advocating AR legislation is a form a bigotry, and I’m very sensitive about it because it does affect me personally. That’s OK, but bear in mind that you yourself advocate _some_ legislation that could justifiably be considered “AR” to a degree, even if you wouldn’t call it such yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/57 "2005-07-19T14:41:10Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > **Contrapuntal** , ah, I mistakenly took it that “crate training” meant the _rearing_ of veal calves in crates in order to keep them immobile and provide tender, fatty meat suitable for _foie gras_ and the like. _Foie gras_ is goose liver. It has nothing whatsoever to do with “tender fatty meat” from veal or any other cattle. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/58 "2005-07-19T14:43:52Z")
SB- you’re making a lot more sense and although I disagree with most of what you say, at least you’re spending more time addressing the issues and less time insulting dissenting points of view. I don’t see how a legislative bill could be a form of bigotry- why can’t you simply debate the actual legislation as it arises and if indeed your viewpoint is correct, then it should prevail. It sounds as if you agree that animal cruelty is a bad thing, you just disagree on what constitutes cruelty and where to draw the line. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/59 "2005-07-19T14:44:08Z")
Christ, I’m not doing very well here! I think I’ll take my leave while my dignity still hangs by a thread. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/60 "2005-07-19T14:56:54Z")
(Ah, yes, I was confusing two equally cruel practices: [crate rearing](http://www.ari-online.org/pages/europe_7_vealcrating.html) and [force-feeding geese for foie gras](http://www.stopforcefeeding.com/page.php?module=home).) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952.md?page=4)