# Unregistered Bull, learn to debate then come back to GD **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 18, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952 "2005-07-18T07:07:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/81 "2005-07-20T17:57:37Z")
I’m with **Miller** on this one. Animals aren’t noble, just as there were no “noble savages” living in harmony with nature. Survival of the fittest is a grim game and the winner is often the species or individual who’s the most fierce and mean. And no, animals have no rights. However, humans have obligations. And that’s a big difference. It’s sad that the dodo died out, but it really doesn’t affect me as a person. I don’t think ti’s sad that smallpox is virtually irradicated or that there are species that no human has ever seen, let alone given a name to, that dies out this week. The planet can handle it, and I suspect that deep down, many people react when a greenbacked spotted woodpecker dies out, because it remindfs that person about the fragility of life and our own anxieties about death and the deaths of those close to us. But when it comes to pets and domesticated animals, we _do_ have an obligation. There are about a billion heads of cattle on the planet right now, many more than there would be, if we didn’t raise them in meat factories. The population of dogs as compared to wolves show that without the aid of humans, there wouldn’t be a fraction as many dogs as there are now (in fact, there wouldn’t be any at all] and dogs exists on our wims. So we have an obligation to care for those creatures that we use in one form or another. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/82 "2005-07-20T17:57:41Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > See, I wonder about this. I know folks who think that declawing should be treated as criminal animal cruelty, who think it’s irresponsible not to get your animal microchipped, who believe that pinatas at parties teach children to abuse animals. And yet these people endorse crate training. > > I’m no dog expert, but it seems to me to be unlikely that this causes significant emotional anguish in a dog: if it did, the people I know who are very, very pro-animal-rights would almost certainly oppose it. > > Daniel One of the most important aspects of crate training is just that; training the dog to be comfortable in a crate. There are times when it is crucial for an animal to be confined; for example, when recovering from surgery, or when it must be separated from other animals. It is strongly recommended that pets be transported in a crate. They tend to turn into unguided missiles in the event of a wreck. A crate of proper size with proper padding and water, if necessary, is a safe, relaxing environment. My dogs choose to go in their crates all the time. It’s like their little hidey-hole. ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/83 "2005-07-20T18:07:31Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Sorry but you’ve just produced a very lame pit post. No real vitriol. The barest hint of flaming. Well reasoned. Courteous to the subject. Doesn’t mention goat felching even once. Too much light, not enough heat. See? See? This is why I love SDMB! Oh, I should have said, “And that’s why all other boards are fucking goat felching sons of whores!” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/84 "2005-07-20T18:41:57Z")
On the subject of crate training, and wether or not dogs like confined spaces: I have a border collie-pyrenese mix. Largish dog. Very neurotic. Never crate trained him, but whenever there’s thunder, loud construction noises, or local punk kids setting off fireworks, he always runs straight for the bathroom and hides in the shower stall. Which is about the depth and width (obviously, not height) of a crate for a dog his size. For whatever reason, he feels safest in this darkened, confined little area, and that’s without prompting or encouragement from me. And this is a border collie mix we’re talking about here, which is pretty much the definitional breed for endlessly running around in wide open spaces. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/85 "2005-07-20T23:16:58Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Have never run into your posts before, likely due to the sparcity of same due to your recent sign-up date and/or different posting patterns – as long as I’ve been here, I probably “know” 40-50 members at most for the latter reason – but far as much as I’m not wont to dispense praise that was a great effort for any number of reasons which, I fully admit, I am too lazy to list. Besides if others can’t figure them out, doubt they belong here in the first place. Anyhoo…welcome aboard, trust I didn’t embarrass you too much – not like I have some sort of gage for that kind of thing for I can’t seem to remember the last time I blushed. Hey thanks for the welcome, I appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/86 "2005-07-21T00:43:48Z")
> [@Zhao Daoli](#): > > Oh you weren’t defending him? So you think a partisan, inconsistent attack is a legitimate one? You were obviously defending him, and now you’re withdrawing because I showed you how you were wrong. For once, I’d like to see someone just say: “Hey, that’s a good point, I withdraw my unfounded criticism.” I wasn’t wrong. I wasn’t defending him, I was pointing out a glaring inconsistancy in your post. As such, the criticism was not unfounded. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/87 "2005-07-21T02:23:34Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I wasn’t wrong. I wasn’t defending him, I was pointing out a glaring inconsistancy in your post. As such, the criticism was not unfounded. Well, it’s nice that you think so, but you failed to address the reasons that say you’re wrong (three of them, if I remember correctly). But the truth is, I’m not interested in making any enemies, so I’ll just let it go. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/88 "2005-07-21T05:54:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What about rattlesnakes? I’m sorry but the poison of a rattlesnake is part of its nature. Since when have a dedicated group of rattlesnakes conspired to create, say, blister or blood agents, mustard gas or binary VX agents? Are you saying that humans are born with poison dispensers? You may be right judging by the shit that spews out of some people’s mouths nowadays. > [@Miller](#): > > Fair enough, although bombs, like all weapons of war, are merely extensions of the inherent violence of the natural world. Again, we’re just better at it than any other species on Earth. So tell me, when does an animal seek to destroy other members of its species for holding different political beliefs? When does a bear travel 10,000 miles to drop bombs on another bear for economic reasons? Since when do animals of the same species have any of the distinctions that different human cultures fight over? > [@Miller](#): > > Spiderwebs seem fairly similar. This is a joke right? I had a hardy laugh at this. But here goes anyway. Does the spider torture the fly for information on where the other flies live? Is the spider punishing the fly for some reason? These analogies are idiotic and I wonder why I’m taking the time to answer this. > [@Miller](#): > > On the other hand, humans are the only animals on the planet to have conceived of age of consent laws, which I think speaks well of us. Also, we have far fewer instances of eating our own young than most other species. Ah yes, finally we learn that there is a certain abstraction from nature in the society of man. Delve into this deeply, the answer will come. > [@Miller](#): > > Ants. That was a cartoon. Ants can’t talk. I would like to think that ants can go on adventures and talk and have girlfriends in shit like that but I don’t imagine that is real. Or do you think that “army” ants have tiny little guns and bazookas with little high-pitched voices screaming at each other “GET YOUR ASS OUT OF THAT FOXHOLE PRIVATE” like human armies? > [@Miller](#): > > And so forth and so on. There’s really very little that humans do that doesn’t have its analogue in the animal kingdom. We’re just better at… well, just about everything. Including possessing enough self-awareness to at least attempt to limit our environmental impact and correct natural behaviors we have recognized as destructive. I think that speaks very well for us as a species. When you find a badger that’s written the equivalent of the Code of Hammurabi, then we can talk. Until then, we’re the best thing this planet’s got going for it. Really, you asked the planet? But let’s get down to brass tax: Has an animal other than a human ever attempted genocide? That’s what I thought. Even though I thought that it was clearly implied by my second to last post, animals live more harmoniously with THEIR nature which is therefore in harmony with Nature overall. We are out of harmony as you have stated. We combat disease and have laws to prevent (I should say hold in check till they violently erupt in spasms of killing on a massive scale) our true natures from manifesting themselves in society. This seems to me to create profound disparity at the core of mankind. His intelligence is the cause of this. Animals murder, rape, and do all sorts of nasty things. However, this is in their nature but they, however, never realize the grandiose scale that we humans can aspire to. We do those same things but attempt to DENY our nature and in my opinion and this will lead to the destruction of the race. So given this, I find that mankind has **NO CLAIM WHATSOEVER** to thinking it is superior to any other lifeform. Or should it on the basis of being told by the human god that humans are superior? Think of how ridiculous this is. In societies we live against our nature but it comes out from time to time and when this is coupled with technology, it tends to destroy much more than any animal could. Locusts in the wild not having vast areas of farmland in which to overpopulate would never reach as vast a number in the wild. Our screwing with nature has led to aberrations so pointing out those aberrations is little help for your argument. As far as I see it, humans have three choices: Embrace nature and live more simply with less technology or keep living in ever growing societies of other human animals with more technology knowing that eventually human nature will destroy itself. _Or_ we can evolve and realize that we should work towards not having to kill anything for our existence. This is of course impossible now, but once matter manipulation of some sort is possible, we won’t need to kill anything. Judging by the reaction to “animal rights” people and the gall they have at tell us normal people to maybe consider that we live oblivious to the planet and are altering it in ways we do not understand, I’m assured that humanity probably won’t make it in the long run. Good riddance if you ask me. I’ll play my violin for the loss of all that culture in the form of rodeos, NASCAR, and wrestling. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/89 "2005-07-21T08:05:11Z")
> [@The Highwayman](#): > > As far as I see it, humans have three choices: Embrace nature and live more simply with less technology TBC, smallpox, polio, malaria… Sorry dude, for as long as there have been humans, we’ve been trying to get away from nature. It’s harsh, brutish and will kill you before you’re 20. And even if animals don’t practice genocide, the competition is mostly with others of their own species - ever seen baby birds getting fed by mom? It’s not a pretty sight. BTW - chimps commit murder. You’ve od’d on J.J. Rousseau. Get into rehab. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/90 "2005-07-21T10:43:46Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > TBC, smallpox, polio, malaria… > > Sorry dude, for as long as there have been humans, we’ve been trying to get away from nature. It’s harsh, brutish and will kill you before you’re 20. I’m gonna assume the antecedent of “it’s” is “getting away from nature.” Ya can’t get away from nature, bub. It’s there. I don’t romanticize nature, any more than I romanticize infants or politics. But it’s possible to look on it clear-eyed, appreciate its magnificence, and stay the hell out of the way of its more dangerous aspects. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/91 "2005-07-21T13:38:32Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > But it’s possible to look on it clear-eyed, appreciate its magnificence, and stay the hell out of the way of its more dangerous aspects. Preferably from an airconditioned vantage point. I can find delight in the splendor of nature, but that’s because I’ve got an apartment, a car, a job… all the trimmings of modern life. I doubt I’d appreciate it the same way if I had to live in it. It’s only urban people with time on their hands and money to spend who love to visit nature. Farmers in the Badlands don’t go hiking or whitewater rafting. If they have money, the go to Disneyworld or Vegas. [/broad brush] ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/92 "2005-07-21T14:18:54Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > You insane lying cretin, where have I said anything like this? > > This is the reason why I try not to bother with you in Great Debates: you’re a lying, incoherent loser. > > Daniel In great debates you moron. I said that HSUS was against hunting and other forms of traditional animal use. You denied it. Fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/93 "2005-07-21T14:23:31Z")
> [@Herdin](#): > > So it’s perfectly OK for you if the leaving of the dog in a car on a hot day is based on tradition? If it’s tradition then it’s necessarily cruel? How long does a cruel activity have to be repeated in order to be placed into the ‘traditional’ category anyway? (i.e. supposing starting this year members of a community wish to hold a competition to see which dog can survive in a car on a hot day for the longest period of time. They then repeat this every year.) It’s not a tradition that I know of. So the issue is really a strawman. I don’t see how this could a sport or even a religious activity. Now we can look at traditional slaughter methods like cutting throats without first stunning an animal, sports like Charreada (Mexican rodeo), a Korean eating dogs, etc. And no, I don’t think those things are unnecessarily cruel. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/94 "2005-07-21T14:25:30Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Actually, it may surprise you to know that a subset of animals are considered humans. > > I will leave it to you as an excercise to figure out which species of animal I might be referring to. :rolleyes: so a chimp or a great ape is the same as your wife or daughter? ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/95 "2005-07-21T14:43:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > SB- you’re making a lot more sense and although I disagree with most of what you say, at least you’re spending more time addressing the issues and less time insulting dissenting points of view. > > I don’t see how a legislative bill could be a form of bigotry- why can’t you simply debate the actual legislation as it arises and if indeed your viewpoint is correct, then it should prevail. It sounds as if you agree that animal cruelty is a bad thing, you just disagree on what constitutes cruelty and where to draw the line. We obviously disagree on alot. You say something about slippery slopes not existing and then provide a perfect example of a slippery slope with the gun issue. I also feel that legislation can expression of bigotry. Just look at past laws about race mixing or homosexual sex. I do disagree on what is cruelty as well. But I also make it a point not to condemn some group of people just because of how they use animals be it for tradition, sport, or religion. I also don’t believe in hamstringing business in meat industry over cruelty matters. I hear that some cultures that eat dog actually boil them alive (which might be all AR propaganda AFAIK). This sounds insanely cruel to me, but I still wouldn’t want my government to discriminate against them because of it. If AR people didn’t try to get government to force their views on others, I wouldn’t even have a problem with them. ---
**Author:** ![Herdin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Herdin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Herdin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/96 "2005-07-21T14:44:51Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > It’s not a tradition that I know of. So the issue is really a strawman. I don’t see how this could a sport or even a religious activity. You’re right it is a strawman but you are appealing to tradition as an important part of your argument. [http://www.ramdac.org/fallacies.php?fallacy=Appeal%20to%20Tradition](http://www.ramdac.org/fallacies.php?fallacy=Appeal%20to%20Tradition) My third question still remains: “How long does a cruel activity have to be repeated in order to be placed into the ‘traditional’ category anyway?” Since this is an important factor in determining what is necessarily and unnecessarily cruel perhaps you can explain when you believe something should be placed in that category for the future. Traditions develope over time and new ones are created so I am curious if you would remove the unnecessarily cruel factor to some activity if it became tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/97 "2005-07-21T15:07:25Z")
> [@Herdin](#): > > You’re right it is a strawman but you are appealing to tradition as an important part of your argument. > > [http://www.ramdac.org/fallacies.php?fallacy=Appeal%20to%20Tradition](http://www.ramdac.org/fallacies.php?fallacy=Appeal%20to%20Tradition) > > My third question still remains: “How long does a cruel activity have to be repeated in order to be placed into the ‘traditional’ category anyway?” Since this is an important factor in determining what is necessarily and unnecessarily cruel perhaps you can explain when you believe something should be placed in that category for the future. Traditions develope over time and new ones are created so I am curious if you would remove the unnecessarily cruel factor to some activity if it became tradition. I don’t see leaving pets in hot cars becoming a tradition or emulating an existing tradition or even a past tradition. Nor do I see it even remotely appealing to even the some of the most despised traditional animal users, animal fighting enthusiasts (like me). I really don’t have a opinion formulated on when something becomes a tradition. I think that every tradition that AR folks wish to stamp out currently are long held ones or logical extensions of long held traditions. Starting something up totally from scratch and not based in any way at all to any prior traditional/cultural/commercial/medical animal use, might very well be something the State could stop without offending my ethical sensibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/98 "2005-07-21T15:08:16Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > In great debates you moron. I said that HSUS was against hunting and other forms of traditional animal use. You denied it. Fucking idiot. If I may repeat: you’re a lying cretin. Why don’ you cite where I denied any such thing? Loser. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/99 "2005-07-21T15:26:42Z")
In fact, I’ll make you an offer: Within 24 hours of your post accepting this wager, provide a direct link to the post in which I denied “that HSUS was against hunting and other forms of traditional animal use”, and I’ll either send you a bottle of whiskey of your choice (up to $40 value), or I’ll stay out of all animal-welfare-related threads for the next six months. You choose the prize. If you cannot provide such a cite, then I get to choose whether you send me the booze or you keep your snivelling lying cretinous ass out of all animal-related threads for the next six months. If **Miller** (a stand-up guy who agrees with you on most substantive issues when it comes to animals) is willing to judge your success in providing the cite, I’ll accede to his judgment. Whaddya say, you poor excuse for a victim of fetal alcohol poisoning? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/100 "2005-07-21T15:27:51Z")
:rolleyes: I said that PETA and HSUS wish to stop certain forms of traditional animal use. You said that HSUS didn’t. I said that you were full of it. Are you telling me that the HSUS hasn’t fought against any forms of traditional animal use that seems cruel them? I posted this: “Besides the distateful tactics of PETA, it’s might not be debated because the vast majority of what HSUS and PETA stand for is absolutely ludricrous. They’re animals not humans. Most people, irregardless of political stripe (excepting the Greens perhaps) don’t have a problem with their use as food, companionship, or medical research. The same with hunting and fishing. These things that the vast majority of people have no problem with, are things which PETA and HSUS wish to destroy. PETA and HSUS are anti-civil rights organizations who whish to take away human civil rights (cultural, traditional, religous, logical commercial and medical treatment of animals) while at the same time give human civil rights to animals. Organizations promoting bigotry because of genuinely weird as well as unpopular reasons, simply don’t get alot of support.” You posted this: "Despite Bull’s undocumented, unsupported, and untrue attacks against HSUS, most people understand that the two groups are far different. It is a problem that there’s nobody on this board who is an informed supporter of Animal Rights. This is not due to any weakness of AR arguments–there are informed supporters of all kinds of crackpot theories on this board, many of them far weaker than animal rights theory. I think it’d be fascinating to get a Tom Regan or one of his students onboard to offer a vigorous, intellectual defense of the AR position. Daniel" So again, are you saying that HSUS has no problems and doesn’t wish to stop or change any currently legal hunting practices (to include all manners of trapping), fishing practices, commercial treatment of livestock raised for human consumption, or medical testing on animals? And what about forms of traditional / cultural sporting activities? Do they not want to make cockfighting illegal in Louisianna and New Mexico? Do they not want to ban Mexican rodeo events like tripping horses on foot or steers by their tail from horseback? PETA and HSUS are essentially two peas in the same pod. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952.md?page=6)