# Unregistered Bull, learn to debate then come back to GD **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 18, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952 "2005-07-18T07:07:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/101 "2005-07-21T15:29:59Z")
Before I respond, you ignorant skunk-cabbage, do you accept my wager? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/102 "2005-07-21T15:32:29Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Whaddya say, you poor excuse for a victim of fetal alcohol poisoning? > Daniel No thanks on the bet. I also see no reason to insult my mother either. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/103 "2005-07-21T15:33:31Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Before I respond, you ignorant skunk-cabbage, do you accept my wager? > Daniel LOL ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/104 "2005-07-21T15:38:05Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > No thanks on the bet. I also see no reason to insult my mother either. I figured you were an early unsuccessful attempt at in vitro fertilization: you know, wank a bull, shove the jizz in a test-tube, bury it under rooster dung on the night of the new moon, and hope something results. Shame on your not accepting the wager, though; I could use some good whiskey. > [@](#): > > So again, are you saying that HSUS has no problems and doesn’t wish to stop or change any currently legal hunting practices (to include all manners of trapping), fishing practices, commercial treatment of livestock raised for human consumption, or medical testing on animals? No, you insignificant douchebag, of course I’m not saying that; nor did I say that. If your ignorant ninnyisms are the best that the pro-animal-cruelty crowd can put up, no wonder you’re losing so bad, so widely. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/105 "2005-07-21T15:38:52Z")
Also if somewhere in my angered speach, I have insulted your mother, I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/106 "2005-07-21T15:46:13Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I figured you were an early unsuccessful attempt at in vitro fertilization: you know, wank a bull, shove the jizz in a test-tube, bury it under rooster dung on the night of the new moon, and hope something results. > > Shame on your not accepting the wager, though; I could use some good whiskey. > No, you insignificant douchebag, of course I’m not saying that; nor did I say that. If your ignorant ninnyisms are the best that the pro-animal-cruelty crowd can put up, no wonder you’re losing so bad, so widely. > > Daniel LOL. You’re pretty pathetic. You obviously lost the bet. Animal users are not losing that badly. Louisiana has a constitutional ammendment now protecting hunting, trapping, and fishing. Democrat governor Bill Richardson even supported cock fighting in NM (though we will ultimately lose that one as it’s not very popular with the masses). Celebrities like J-Lo and may rappers love fur and leather. Kerry made it a point to be a hunter when he ran as President. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/107 "2005-07-21T15:48:06Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > LOL. You’re pretty pathetic. You obviously lost the bet. If I’ve obviously lost it, why not agree to the terms, you skanky bottle of rat-smegma? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/108 "2005-07-21T15:50:19Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > If I’ve obviously lost it, why not agree to the terms, you skanky bottle of rat-smegma? > > Daniel Gross. When I said that AR people had bizzare fetishes for animals, I didn’t mean it in a sexual sense. Please don’t prove me wrong here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/109 "2005-07-21T15:52:25Z")
Take the bet, or admit you’re a cowardly, idiotic liar. Of course, the fact that you’re cowardly means you won’t take the bet, and the fact that you’re a liar means you won’t admit what you are. But at least we can make that crystalline for everyone else. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/110 "2005-07-21T16:34:06Z")
I’d be happy to adjudicate the bet, but seeing as my first post in this thread was an insult aimed at one of the participants, I’m not sure I’d be accepted as sufficiently impartial. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/111 "2005-07-21T17:40:04Z")
> [@The Highwayman](#): > > I’m sorry but the poison of a rattlesnake is part of its nature. No need to apologize. I agree completely. And dropping napalm bombs is part of our nature. Where’s the problem? > [@](#): > > So tell me, when does an animal seek to destroy other members of its species for holding different political beliefs? When does a bear travel 10,000 miles to drop bombs on another bear for economic reasons? Since when do animals of the same species have any of the distinctions that different human cultures fight over? Well, obviously, there’s not really an analogue for politics in the animals world, that I can think of. But economic reasons? Animals kill each other for “economic” reasons every day. It’s all about competeing for limited resources. Two dogs fighting over a bone is, at its base, an economic struggle. The only real difference is scale: humans operate at a larger scale than any other animal, but we don’t do anything that is radically different than the rest of the animal kingdom. > [@](#): > > This is a joke right? I had a hardy laugh at this. But here goes anyway. Does the spider torture the fly for information on where the other flies live? Is the spider punishing the fly for some reason? These analogies are idiotic and I wonder why I’m taking the time to answer this. Does it matter to the fly _why_ it’s in the web? Spiders… No, let’s go with cats. Cats are a better analogy. Cats catch and torture birds and small mammals for food and sport. Human catch and torture other humans for political or military advantage, or more rarely, for sport. Why is one natural and the other un-? > [@](#): > > Ah yes, finally we learn that there is a certain abstraction from nature in the society of man. Delve into this deeply, the answer will come. No, actually, there aren’t. There is nothing humans can do that is not a part of nature. We are a part of nature, and everything we do is contained by nature. There are, of course, a few things that humans do that are unique to our species: religion seems to be one (although I sometimes wonder if dogs haven’t picked up the idea from us), representational art is another. Laws and the concept of justice are, I guess, a third, although I’m not entirely certain of even that. A lot of animals have complex social structures, and its possible that they also have the concept of social transgressions, and punishment for those transgressions. If I’m wrong, though, it does nothing at all to support your argument. Humans would be unique in nature in being able to recognize their destructive habits and attempting to reign them in. This would, I think, place us above most other animals. > [@](#): > > That was a cartoon. Ants can’t talk. I would like to think that ants can go on adventures and talk and have girlfriends in shit like that but I don’t imagine that is real. Or do you think that “army” ants have tiny little guns and bazookas with little high-pitched voices screaming at each other “GET YOUR ASS OUT OF THAT FOXHOLE PRIVATE” like human armies? Ant hives routinely invade and slaughter other hives, murdering every foreign ant they can get their mandibles on. That’s war, by any other name. Genocide, too, for that matter. Honestly, if you’re going to be the advocate for the natural world, shouldn’t you actually learn a little about it, first? > [@](#): > > Really, you asked the planet? The Earth does not have opinions. [i}Captain Planet\* was not a documentary. > [@](#): > > But let’s get down to brass tax: Has an animal other than a human ever attempted genocide? That’s what I thought. Yes, all the time. Extinction is not a human invention. Also, it’s “tacks,” not “tax.” > [@](#): > > Even though I thought that it was clearly implied by my second to last post, animals live more harmoniously with THEIR nature which is therefore in harmony with Nature overall. We are out of harmony as you have stated. I’ve stated no such thing. Nature does not have harmony. It is not a stable system, but one that is in constant flux. The natural “order” is one of calamity and recovery, calamity and recovery. Forest fires are a part of nature. Overpopulation followed by famine is a part of nature. Volcanos are a part of nature. Giant fucking rocks falling out of the sky and annihilating 80% if the species on the planet is part of nature. When our sun finally goes nova and burns every scrap of life off of this sphere, that, too, will be part of nature. Nature is not harmonious: it is brutal and chaotic. > [@](#): > > We combat disease and have laws to prevent (I should say hold in check till they violently erupt in spasms of killing on a massive scale) our true natures from manifesting themselves in society. This seems to me to create profound disparity at the core of mankind. His intelligence is the cause of this. Animals murder, rape, and do all sorts of nasty things. However, this is in their nature but they, however, never realize the grandiose scale that we humans can aspire to. We do those same things but attempt to DENY our nature and in my opinion and this will lead to the destruction of the race. So given this, I find that mankind has **NO CLAIM WHATSOEVER** to thinking it is superior to any other lifeform. Or should it on the basis of being told by the human god that humans are superior? Think of how ridiculous this is. Okay, hang on. Animals do all the same nasty stuff humans do. But because we’re aware that this stuff is nasty, and try to avoid doing it, we’re going destroy ourselves? Huh? You’re not making a whole hell of a lot of sense, here. Try taking a couple deep breaths and try again. I think you’re getting a little over-excited. > [@](#): > > In societies we live against our nature but it comes out from time to time and when this is coupled with technology, it tends to destroy much more than any animal could. Locusts in the wild not having vast areas of farmland in which to overpopulate would never reach as vast a number in the wild. Our screwing with nature has led to aberrations so pointing out those aberrations is little help for your argument. There are not aberrations in nature, per se. Nature exsists as it does because of these “aberrations”: it’s how evolution works, after all. The problem with your mindset is that you are fixated on a concept that simply does not exsist: the “unnatural.” There is nothing on Earth or in the stars that is unnatural: it’s all a part of nature. The opposite of natural, you see, is not “unnatural.” It is “supernatural.” > [@](#): > > As far as I see it, humans have three choices: Embrace nature and live more simply with less technology or keep living in ever growing societies of other human animals with more technology knowing that eventually human nature will destroy itself. _Or_ we can evolve and realize that we should work towards not having to kill anything for our existence. This is of course impossible now, but once matter manipulation of some sort is possible, we won’t need to kill anything. Now you’re flat out contradicting yourself. Option two is to keep increasing our technology until we all die, but option three is to use Star Trek-style super technology to live in some sort of a perfect vegan society? Which is it, man? Make up your mind. > [@](#): > > Judging by the reaction to “animal rights” people and the gall they have at tell us normal people to maybe consider that we live oblivious to the planet and are altering it in ways we do not understand, I’m assured that humanity probably won’t make it in the long run. Good riddance if you ask me. I’ll play my violin for the loss of all that culture in the form of rodeos, NASCAR, and wrestling. What the hell are you even trying to say, here? Who are the “normal people?” Who has the gall? What’s wrong with NASCAR? If we’re losing all our culture, where are you getting a violin from? I respect that you’ve got a lot of passion for the issue, but a little less passion and a little more coherence would go a long way towards convincing others of your viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/112 "2005-07-21T17:56:38Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > I can find delight in the splendor of nature, but that’s because I’ve got an apartment, a car, a job… all the trimmings of modern life. I doubt I’d appreciate it the same way if I had to live in it. It’s only urban people with time on their hands and money to spend who love to visit nature. Farmers in the Badlands don’t go hiking or whitewater rafting. If they have money, the go to Disneyworld or Vegas.[/broad brush] I know farmers that enjoy hiking and camping. I don’t have any money to spend, but I still enjoy the outdoors. I know you said you were painting with a broad brush, but I think even your broad generalization is wrong. People that truly enjoy the outdoors don’t live in the city. They move to the country. * * * Unregistered Bull, you’ve piqued my curiosity with your tradition argument. I think you don’t even understand your own reasoning. I think that your mind is telling you something like this “traditions are important, and since protecting animals is not very important at all, it’s very offensive that people want to end these traditional practices.” Failing to realize that you’ve assumed the falsity of the premise you’re trying to disprove, you spout your vitriol about how AR people are immoral and the cause is evil for wanting to end traditional uses of animals. Is that about it? Or are you really arguing that if something is traditional it cannot be unethical. If I were you, I’d pick the first choice, it still makes you look stupid because it’s so circular, but it’s less embarrassing than admitting you’re arguing the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/113 "2005-07-21T18:10:31Z")
> [@Zhao Daoli](#): > > I know farmers that enjoy hiking and camping. I don’t have any money to spend, but I still enjoy the outdoors. I know you said you were painting with a broad brush, but I think even your broad generalization is wrong. People that truly enjoy the outdoors don’t live in the city. They move to the country. Of course there are farmers that enjoy rafting. But if you’re outdoors, doing manual labor in hot sun or freezing rain all day, every day, I bet your idea for fun during vacation is not hiking in hot sun or freezing rain, but comfort, if your budget will allow it. As for moving to the country - that’s something else. May I suggest reading “Collapse” by Jared Diamond, to see what he has to say about this. I’ll give you a hint - it’s wreaking the nature. Becaue people don’t move to boring and mundane rural places, like Indiana or somewhere outside Lincoln, Nebraska. They move to places where there are seas, ocean or mountains. And they develop communities that aren’t in harmony with nature. We’re on different levels here, since this is Bull’s pitting. It just grates me when people talk about the harmony of nature, because there really is no such thing (see Miller’s good post a little way up thread). ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/114 "2005-07-21T18:31:41Z")
**Miller** : Just wanted to congratulate you on a truly excellent post. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/115 "2005-07-22T04:48:00Z")
> [@The Gaspode](#): > > Of course there are farmers that enjoy rafting. But if you’re outdoors, doing manual labor in hot sun or freezing rain all day, every day, I bet your idea for fun during vacation is not hiking in hot sun or freezing rain, but comfort, if your budget will allow it. > > As for moving to the country - that’s something else. May I suggest reading “Collapse” by Jared Diamond, to see what he has to say about this. I’ll give you a hint - it’s wreaking the nature. Becaue people don’t move to boring and mundane rural places, like Indiana or somewhere outside Lincoln, Nebraska. They move to places where there are seas, ocean or mountains. And they develop communities that aren’t in harmony with nature. > > We’re on different levels here, since this is Bull’s pitting. It just grates me when people talk about the harmony of nature, because there really is no such thing (see Miller’s good post a little way up thread). I don’t think we disagree. I read “delight in the splendor of nature” as appreciation for outdoor recreation such as hiking and camping. I don’t think you meant it that way – you meant it as sanctimonious reverence for “the natural” which is pretty much an artificial construct anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/116 "2005-07-22T06:07:39Z")
Yes. I _like_ nature. But \*_The Highwayman_ has some very romantic notions that aren’t supported by facts. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/117 "2005-07-22T18:27:51Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Take the bet, or admit you’re a cowardly, idiotic liar. > > Of course, the fact that you’re cowardly means you won’t take the bet, and the fact that you’re a liar means you won’t admit what you are. But at least we can make that crystalline for everyone else. > > Daniel ROTFLMAO 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/118 "2005-07-22T18:40:03Z")
If the community at large gains nothing else from this thread, at least note how someone reacts when confronted with irrefutable reasons that they are wrong and being an ass. It starts with feeble replies, moves to anger and name-calling, transitions into outright lying, and ends, apparently, in insane laughter. Very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/119 "2005-07-22T18:57:56Z")
> [@Zhao Daoli](#): > > Unregistered Bull, you’ve piqued my curiosity with your tradition argument. I think you don’t even understand your own reasoning. I think that your mind is telling you something like this “traditions are important, and since protecting animals is not very important at all, it’s very offensive that people want to end these traditional practices.” Failing to realize that you’ve assumed the falsity of the premise you’re trying to disprove, you spout your vitriol about how AR people are immoral and the cause is evil for wanting to end traditional uses of animals. Is that about it? > > Or are you really arguing that if something is traditional it cannot be unethical. > > If I were you, I’d pick the first choice, it still makes you look stupid because it’s so circular, but it’s less embarrassing than admitting you’re arguing the latter. AR people are bigots because they feel that they are culturally superior to others that don’t adhere to their philosophy. They want to force their culture on others. They lack a tolerance of those that are different. Their desire, and success, at getting the government to implement their bigotry makes them not so nice people. I am arguing that cultural / traditional / religous animal use is something that the State shouldn’t bother with in a free society. It is simply something that should not be used for official government discrimination. It’s this way because animals are not humans, and their treatment in no way harms humans. They in no way even approach being on same level as humans. When a traditional / cultural / religous activity harms a non-consensual human being, it’s a different thing. And I’m pretty sure that I’ve stated something similar in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952/120 "2005-07-22T19:04:12Z")
> [@Zhao Daoli](#): > > If the community at large gains nothing else from this thread, at least note how someone reacts when confronted with irrefutable reasons that they are wrong and being an ass. It starts with feeble replies, moves to anger and name-calling, transitions into outright lying, and ends, apparently, in insane laughter. Very interesting. You are really a fucking moron. Lefthand’s the only liar. The replies are only feeble only to someone taking your side. And then, they fall into the same category of being a certifiable lunatic as well as a bigot who wants the government to enforce their bigotry. I have no respect for them. They are my enemy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unregistered-bull-learn-to-debate-then-come-back-to-gd/312952.md?page=7)