# Unrepentant pair of 14 year old humpers face jail. Fair or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722 "2003-08-21T17:13:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/61 "2003-08-22T18:48:52Z")
> [@](#): > > If you were to twist the law even further in the direction the prosecutor in the case is currently taking it, you could argue that a couple of 15 year olds that were making out had also sexually abused each other, as the passages Otto provided state that just touching can be a form of secondary sexual abuse–if the defendant becomes aroused. There is no such crime as “sexual abuse” in Wisconsin. They were charged with “sexual assault.” There is no connotation in the language of the statute that abuse or coercion was involved. > [@](#): > > I’m also concerned that the girl cut a plea on 4th degree sexual assault. It seems that the statute limits 4th degree s.a. to those older than 16. I get this from a U. of Wisc. site, bolding mine: > > ## quote: > > ## Fourth degree sexual assault is defined as sexual contact,without consent, with a person age 16 or over. A person who commits fourth degree sexual assault can be fined up to $10,000 and/or imprisoned for up to 9 months in the county jail. Fourth degree sexual assault is a misdemeanor. > > The facts of the case do not support this charge being offered the girl in a plea arrangement. You cannot plead guilty to a crime that you could not, by definition of the statute, commit. Nope. Under Wis stat. 940.225(3m) you’re guilty of 4th degree sexual assault if you have “sexual contact with a person without the consent of that person” and the boy could not legally consent to sexual contact. There is no age specified in the statute. So she’s guilty of the charge. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/62 "2003-08-22T18:58:47Z")
> [@](#): > > By the way, I mean no offense, if any of my replies come off as rude or shortsighted, I guess it’s just the nature of the questions I’m asking, apologies. You are “coming off” likely close to how you intend, as someone curious and perhaps a bit frustrated by we "mean old adults’ " restrictions, but basically imo, you are a normal, polite poster. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/63 "2003-08-22T19:09:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zuma \* > \*\*The mother of the whore should have, oh I don’t know, grabbed her by the hair and dragged her into her room, immediately ground her, maybe give her a slap or two, and not ever allow her out of the house until she’s 16 or so? As my daughter would say “riiiHIiiighht”. My daughter was bigger than me, and if she’d a mind to, she could have thumped me to within and inch of my life by the time she was 14. What are you NUTS? Besides which, Oh yeah, Violence is a good answer!! > [@](#): > > Does she have internet access? cut if off. Does have a tv? take it away. Does she have makeup, cds, any other luxuries? take them away. This thing is silly on so many levels. That she let her child even get into this situation is telling of her and her husbands’ parenting abilities. \*\* Now THIS makes a LOT more sense. My “purse strings” NOT my right hook are what kept my daughter halfway in line. But bear in mind, if the kid has seriously veered over into delinquency, “economic sanctions” aren’t going to control her either. ---
**Author:** ![Dravin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dravin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dravin)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/64 "2003-08-22T19:12:35Z")
My verdict: Not Fair. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/65 "2003-08-22T19:54:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ryle Dup \* > Not sure if I phrased my question wrong there but what I meant to ask is what exactly **are** your reasons? Sorry, I missed this question of yours previously, or the meaning rather. What are my specific, personal reasons for not wanting my teens engaging in sex? Well, first of all, the obvious. I don’t want them getting pregnant, or knocking up some other teen. I don’t want them getting any deadly diseases. And yes, I KNOW that you keep saying that teens can avail themselves of various solutions to keep things things from happening. Sorry, for most kids? I don’t buy it. Hell, half the kids I know can’t even be counted upon to consistantly do their homework or clean their rooms. They’re gonna make sure they use a condom everytime? Besides, stating that “there’s abortion, adoption, RU486, keeping the baby” as “SOLUTIONS” to possible “oopsies”? Um, okay, as stated before, teens have a hard time making it out of bed in the morning, they’re gonna be able to handle colic? 3am feedings? The guilt/depression and other psychological, possibly physiological consequences of having and abortion? The expense of an emergency doctor visit? The pill itself?? Adoption, hard hard thing to go through for ADULTS to give up their own child, let alone a young person. These are just some of the emotional agonies I’d like to spare my children. ---
**Author:** ![ABBAJen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@ABBAJen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ABBAJen)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/66 "2003-08-22T23:33:53Z")
OK, my main problem with the whole situation is the fact that she called the police on them. The sex offender thing on their record will mess up their lives later if they want to be a teacher (because they won’t pass their clearances). I understand the mom not wanting them to have sex. She would be the one who ending up caring for a baby if there was an accidental pregnancy. But it is _ridiculous_ for them to be able to be charged with sexual assault of one another and it’s also ridiculous for the mom to mess up their lives like that. In PA, it’s still supposedly illegal to have oral sex or have sex in any position except missionary. Do you think I should go to jail or be fined because I give and recieve oral, and like to be creative on the positions? This thing with the kids is just as ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/67 "2003-08-23T00:14:48Z")
Canvas, you are still making this about something other than what it was - a sex crime conviction for something that should not be a sex crime. You are making it into a way for parents to deal with problems. This is ludicrous, because how many parents have EVER dealt with a problem by having their teenager convicted of a sex crime for safe consensual sex with someone their own age? I doubt you ever even thought this was a good strategy before, but now that you know it has been used you are having a fit about the possibility that you could lose the power to have your kid arrested and convicted for a sex crime when all they did was have safe consensual sex with someone their own age. More importantly, the “other problems” you mention do not in any way justify sex crimes convictions: 1. People should not be convicted of sex crimes because they are “disrespectful.” 2. If they have other problems, then DEAL with those other problems. Not going to school? Doing drugs? Driving without a license? There are ways to deal with those problems. NONE of those ways is “have your child convicted of a sex crime.” > [@](#): > > Well, because as a minor, I could not commit a sex crime. It has already been mentioned that “two teeners having consensual sex” is not a crime, at least not most places. Which is a good thing, right? Consensual sex between teenagers of the same age is completely natural, and should not be illegal. Again, I am not saying that parents should do nothing about it. Just that it should not be illegal. It is the parent’s job to raise their kid, not the government’s. Incidentally, teen pregnancy is at an all time low. Education really does help. > [@](#): > > ALL discipline directed at teeners works this way. “Do as I say, or I will punish you, or have you punished.” If you wish to avoid “blackmail”, either don’t have sex… or be goddamn careful not to get caught This is extremely short-sighted. What if two teenagers are secretly photographed by someone dangerous? Now the lunatic can blackmail them, and threaten to have them arrested for sex crimes, when really HE is the one that should be arrested! That is one backwards society you are planning there, Wang-Ka. Teenagers should not be able to be hurt and abused, or worse, because they did something completely natural that should not be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/68 "2003-08-23T00:27:13Z")
> [@](#): > > ABBAJen wrote: > > The sex offender thing on their record will mess up their lives later if they want to be a teacher (because they won’t pass their clearances). Once more, with feeling: **Their records will be expunged when they turn 18. IT WON’T BE ON THEIR ADULT RECORD.** ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/69 "2003-08-23T00:43:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ABBAJen \* > \*\*OK, my main problem with the whole situation is the fact that she called the police on them. The sex offender thing on their record will mess up their lives later if they want to be a teacher (because they won’t pass their clearances). > \*\* No, actually it won’t. As other posters have noted here. Their records will be expunged when they reach 18. Teachers have to have security clearances now? Holy cow. They’re taking this homeland security thing TOO darn far 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/70 "2003-08-23T03:22:41Z")
First, to address the OP: I can’t load the link, so I’ll have to go by what other posters have said. And IMO, while the kids may be jerks or have caused trouble in the past, calling the cops on them for having consensual sex is obscene - though not as appalling as the fact that it’s even against the law in the first place. The mother wants to vent her rage through the legal system? Fine… _game on_. She calls the cops for this, they can call CPS next time she smokes in the house, feeds them a non-nutritious meal, or for whatever other bullshit reason they can shoehorn into the definition of neglect. (Or, better yet, whenever their newfound repressed memories of molestation start acting up.) And she’d better hope she never has to depend on her daughter for anything: She may end up staring at the ceiling in a nursing home, covered with bedsores and sedated 16 hours a day. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Ryle Dup_ > **Are there any cites/studies to back up that 14 year olds emotionally equipped / mentally equipped to deal with sex are the exception?** I’ve participated in threads like this one before, and from what I’ve seen: No, there isn’t even a lick of scientific evidence. There’s nothing but gut feelings and vague prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/71 "2003-08-23T03:42:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > [I’ve participated in threads like this one before, and from what I’ve seen: No, there isn’t even a lick of scientific evidence. There’s nothing but gut feelings and vague prejudice. \*\* Prejudice? Who is prejudiced against whom and for what? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/72 "2003-08-23T03:45:49Z")
Latest update [Judge rules teen should be tried in assault case](http://www.jsonline.com/news/Metro/aug03/163972.asp) > [@](#): > > Saying the state has a legitimate interest in protecting minors from sexual activity, a judge ruled Thursday that a 15-year-old boy who was reportedly caught about to have consensual sex with a girl his age should stand trial for attempted second-degree sexual assault. > > “Sexuality is a pretty tough and powerful and strong force, and we’ve determined through our legislative acts that minors aren’t ready for it,” Milwaukee County Circuit Judge Thomas Donegan said. > > “So we have an interest in protecting where, when and if (minors have sex), and we have an interest in protecting parents who want to protect their children,” he said, noting that the mother of the girl called police upon discovering the 15-year-old boy in the woman’s bed with her daughter in October. Both teenagers were 14 at the time. > > “We also have an interest in protecting young persons from anyone having sexual activity with them, whether that someone is their father or uncle or a stranger or a boyfriend, if in fact they’re minors.” Original Article [Teens have right to have sex, lawyer argues](http://www.jsonline.com/news/Metro/aug03/163688.asp) ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/73 "2003-08-23T03:46:38Z")
Mr2001: How many 14-year-olds do _you_ know who are going to school full time, working full time and supporting their own offspring (without the help of their parents or the taxpayers)? How many 14-year-olds do _you_ know who could handle that level of responsibility? ---
**Author:** ![Ottoerotic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6de8d8/32.png) [@Ottoerotic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ottoerotic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/74 "2003-08-23T03:56:17Z")
I’d just like to pop in here and in hijack things long enough to annouce that this is the first time that my little city has been featured on the straight dope. Thanks guys. Please continue… ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/75 "2003-08-23T04:16:20Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by CanvasShoes_ > **Prejudice? Who is prejudiced against whom and for what?** Those who suggest that 14 year olds as a group are incapable of responsibly having sex (or responsibly engaging in various other activities) are prejudiced against youth. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by yosemitebabe_ > **Mr2001: How many 14-year-olds do you know who are going to school full time, working full time and supporting their own offspring (without the help of their parents or the taxpayers)? How many 14-year-olds do you know who could handle that level of responsibility?** Unless the girl is pregnant, it doesn’t matter whether she or her boyfriend can support a child or not. In any case, there are well-known ways to prevent pregnancy, and to prevent pregnancy from leading to childbirth. The kids have already learned all about it if they go to a quality school. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/76 "2003-08-23T04:27:54Z")
I find it pretty disturbing how much some people demonize youth. It is completely natural for teenagers to have sex with peers of their own age. Making it a sex crime is just disgusting. If your kid is disrespectful, doing drugs, skipping school, driving without a license, etc - there are ways to deal with it. But guess what - NONE of those ways involve having your kid arrested and convicted of a sex crime. It’s just outright ridiculous, not to mention extremely insulting to real victims of real sex crimes. And it puts the kids in harm’s way. If this sick law starts to actually get enforced regularly, it would do immense damage. Some criminal takes photos of teenagers having safe, consensual sex - and now the psycho can blackmail them and threaten to have them arrested for a sex crime if they don’t do whatever he says! This is evil! In any sane society, he would be the one to be locked up. But not here in bizarro land - here we let the kids be abused by any adult who chooses to abuse them, because - get this - we have to protect them at _any_ cost from the tragedy of completely natural safe consensual sex with someone their own age. I don’t think so. Use your heads and get rid of this insane law. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/77 "2003-08-23T04:35:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > Unless the girl is pregnant, it doesn’t matter whether she or her boyfriend can support a child or not. In any case, there are well-known ways to prevent pregnancy, and to prevent pregnancy from leading to childbirth. The kids have already learned all about it if they go to a quality school. That’s a non-answer and you know it. Just because it doesn’t always happen doesn’t mean it _can’t_ happen. And if it does happen, the 14-year-olds involved damned well better be prpared and capable to be responsible for the consequences, wouldn’t you agree? Especially since we’ve discussed previously about the male’s inability to stop the woman he impregnates from carrying the child to term, and keeping the child. It doesn’t matter who well “educated” the girl is, she can still change her mind if (God Forbid) the birth control fails. (And birth control is not foolproof.) She can refuse to take the “morning after” pill. She can forget to take her birth conotrol pills. The condom can tear. And once she’s pregnant, as you well know, _he_ cannot stop her from keeping the child and _he_ cannot get out of being financially responsible for the child. So, once again, how many 14-year-olds do you know who are capable of being financially responsible (without any help from parents or taxpayers) for supporting this child that “accidentally” happened? You are not claiming that there’s 0% chance of it happening, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/78 "2003-08-23T04:48:55Z")
Oh great… now you are arguing that sex crimes should be based on the ability of the people involved to support a child. What’s next - it’s not rape if the rapist pays child support? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/79 "2003-08-23T05:27:33Z")
Nighttime: Please copy and paste where I advocated charging these kids with sex crimes. Copy and paste. Copy and paste. I merely said that the parents of these copulating 14-year-olds have a vested interest in stopping them from having sex and possibly breeding. It’s not about trying to spoil the kids’ “natural desire,” it’s (as Wang Ka put it, I believe) a fear of being “drowned in grandchildren.” ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722/80 "2003-08-23T05:28:03Z")
How about the homeless, should it be illegal to allow them to breed since they can’t provide a home for the children? What about the mentally ill homeless who can’t get a job either? No sex for them or jail? Saying teens can’t have sex due to pregnancy is a cop-out. Condoms can break, birth control can fail, and after that, the girl can choose not to use RU481, adoption, or abortion. However, these are very very rare circumstances, and I believe, the exception. You portray this as the MAJORITY in order to support the outlawing of teen sex. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrepentant-pair-of-14-year-old-humpers-face-jail-fair-or-not/196722.md?page=5)