# Unrestricted Submarine Warfare **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 3, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrestricted-submarine-warfare/342919 "2006-02-03T23:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrestricted-submarine-warfare/342919/21 "2006-02-08T01:29:59Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > He was convicted and served ten years in Spandau prison even after Admiral Chester Nimitz testified (or wrote an affadavit) that the U.S. also did not lend aid to survivors if there was danger of being attacked. He ran the government after Hitler killed himself. Was he convicted of any other crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrestricted-submarine-warfare/342919/22 "2006-02-08T02:29:26Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > He ran the government after Hitler killed himself. Was he convicted of any other crimes? He was President of Germany for 20 days after Hitler snuffed it. He may have been convicted of ‘Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression’, but I’d have to look it up. My main interest is in aviation, but I may see if I can find his memoirs _Ten Years And Twenty Days_. (I’m a Navy Brat, after all.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrestricted-submarine-warfare/342919/23 "2006-02-08T11:46:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, this is true, but Russia was not neutral as far as the US was concerned. We were allies, although in another theatre, but we were allies. > You do not win wars by sinking your allies’ ships. Sinking your allies’ ships would have a tendency to piss said allies off. There was no impartial third party enforcing neutrality. It was up to the individual countries involved to initiate their own diplomatic protests if they felt their neutraility had been violated. And the Soviet Union was receiving massive amounts of material aid from the United States. If a Soviet merchant ship had been mistakenly sunk in the Pacific by an American navy ship, Stalin would have just said “too bad for them” and shrugged it off. The Soviets weren’t looking for excuses to argue with the United States at that point. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrestricted-submarine-warfare/342919/24 "2006-02-08T17:12:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sub captains had recognition charts handy, time to survey their targets, and hunted their prey through various means of narrowing the odds - hunting known sea lanes, HF/DF, and other forms of intelligence that were regularly transmitted to them via encrypted radio messages. Recognition charts don’t always do a lot of good, especially through tiny periscopes awash in the sea (or even on deck at the surface awash in the sea: subs of the era did not have good seakeeping qualities). They also didn’t always have time: the merchant’s speed may have been equal to or in rare cases exceeded the sub’s submerged speed, and it was not always possible or wise to run on the surface. The same sea lanes could be used by both neutral and belligerent ships, so that won’t screen out neutrals. Finally, intelligence can always be screwed up. We’ve learned that often enough throughout history. All these methods applied to the German submarine fleet, yet they still sank neutral ships (to be honest, they didn’t really seem to work hard to stop themselves). There were a lot of monumental avalanches of errors and stupidity: they led to the deaths of many crew aboard the _Indianapolis_ and _Chicago_ who could have been rescued rather than languishing days at sea, the Allies permitting the German occupation of Norway, and the huge German successes on the Russian front in 1941. I’m glad this particular monumental error did not occur in the Pacific War, thanks to the posters above for indulging my curiousity. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrestricted-submarine-warfare/342919/25 "2006-02-08T18:00:39Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > He was President of Germany for 20 days after Hitler snuffed it. He may have been convicted of ‘Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression’, but I’d have to look it up. He was convicted of counts 2 and 3, “Crimes against Peace” and “War Crimes”. The “Crimes against Peace” conviction specifies that he did command the U-boat fleet during WWII, and did give the order to attack Allied shipping. He also did reccomend the establishment of submarine bases in Norway, and was consulted numerous times by Hitler regarding the conduct of the war. He also encouraged the Navy to continue fighting even after he knew it was hopeless, and when he became Head of State, ordered the army to continue its war in the east until its capitulation. On Count 3, it was found that he ordered unrestricted submarine warfare, in violation of the London Naval Agreement of 1930 and the Naval Protocol of 1936. Further, Hitler carried out Hitler’s Commando Order of 1942, turning over Allied naval officers to the SD, who were then shot. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrestricted-submarine-warfare/342919/26 "2006-02-08T18:13:00Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > When the Germans unleashed submarines in the Atlantic, they always managed to sink a bunch of highly publicized, clearly civilian ships, like the _Lusitania_ or the _Athenia_, and generally piss people off and provoke neutral nations into a more bellicose stance. > > Then the US unleashed its submarines in the Pacific and… well, I don’t know what happened. > > Were there a lot of neutral casualties from US submarines? Any major incidents? > > If so, is it something better known outside the United States than within it? (I sure hadn’t heard of it, but most of my media sources are American) The US sank a couple of Russian ships. Neither side happy about it but certainly no major repercussions. By the time the US submarine campaign was ramped up, there probably weren’t a lot of major “neutral” ships in the war zone not employed by one side or the other. Hell there weren’t a lot of neutrals in the theater at all except for the USSR. (Hitler on the other hand managed to keep pissing off more countries throughout the war) With the exception of convoys, warships, fast or very large merchants, or larger armed merchantmen it was more typical for a sub to surface and sink the target with deck guns. It was more economical - a sub carried far fewer torpedos than shells and would want to hold on to them for substantial targets. Surface attacks (during the day at least) allow for better identification. By the end of the war US subs were sinking some pretty pissant crap though, so I don’t doubt that some people were in the wrong place at the wrong time. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2006, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrestricted-submarine-warfare/342919/27 "2006-02-08T21:56:03Z")
**Captain Amazing** : Where did you find that? (I have Dönitz’s book in my shooping cart.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unrestricted-submarine-warfare/342919.md?page=1)