# Untruthful Accusations **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 1, 2002, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724 "2002-12-01T02:51:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/221 "2002-12-08T20:07:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Muhammad didn’t die for my sins, Jesus did. Muhammad didn’t rise again the third day, he’s still dead and in his tomb. Jesus tomb is empy proving He is the truth. \*\* I got bad news for you sunshine: Jesus didn’t die for your sins, he didn’t rise from the dead, and his tomb ain’t empty. Jesus is a pile of dusty bones somewhere in the desert. And before you come back in here and tell me “That’s not what the BIBLE says,” lemme tell you something else: the Bible lies. And Allah is very disappointed that you have not been making your daily obeisances towards Mecca. It’s all in the Koran; check it out, before it’s too late. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/222 "2002-12-08T20:09:40Z")
I warned you, I really did. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/223 "2002-12-08T20:11:57Z")
**Monty** , there’s never going to be an end to our disagreements, let’s just accept it. You continue to call me a liar, a hater, etc. Some say I think I speak for God. Well, it’s like this and how many times have I said it? I can read the Word. If I see it saying that thus and such is wrong before God, then how is it wrong for me to agree? For crying out loud, give me a break. You remind me of a bunch of kids squabbling over what the moon is made of or something. Kid A: I know the moon is made out of licorice! Kid B: Oh, no! That’s not so, it’s made of cheese, haven’t you heard? Kid C: Well, I saw something on TV that says it’s only a hologram. Etc. etc. And all the while Kid D knows that it’s made of rock. Poor example maybe, but all I can think of at the moment. I’m tired of repeating myself to say I don’t hate anyone. I can’t tell you what your itching ears want to hear just to convince you I don’t hate you. God knows that I don’t. You guys say that I just don’t get it, well there’s plenty that you don’t get either in my humble opinion.☹ ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/224 "2002-12-08T20:13:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*I got bad news for you sunshine: Jesus didn’t die for your sins, he didn’t rise from the dead, and his tomb ain’t empty. Jesus is a pile of dusty bones somewhere in the desert. And before you come back in here and tell me “That’s not what the BIBLE says,” lemme tell you something else: the Bible lies. > > And Allah is very disappointed that you have not been making your daily obeisances towards Mecca. It’s all in the Koran; check it out, before it’s too late. \*\* Hmmm, I want to talk to you again about Jesus being a dusty pile of bones, when you’re bowing before Him saying “Jesus is Lord”. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/225 "2002-12-08T20:16:23Z")
> [@](#): > > well there’s plenty that you don’t get either in my humble opinion. This was my entire point. Trust someone who’s been around here for about 5 years: this will not stop. It will stop when you stop. Did you read that verse I threw your way? I’d be interested in having an email dialog with you on stuff like this thread and my point. It sounds like we come from similar backgrounds. No, this is not an ambush to scream at you in email. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/226 "2002-12-08T20:25:17Z")
**His4Ever** , you know that I have nothing but sympathy for your life and the choices you’ve made, and that I agree with you about the importance of accepting Jesus into your life. But in all honesty and sincerity, I feel that you’re missing the point of why people are getting down on you in this thread. Some stuff I said earlier in this thread: > [@](#): > > \*Page 3, to **His4Ever** : > > Umm… I really think you’re missing the point, **His4Ever**. I like you as a person, and I think you’re sincerely trying to do your best to follow Jesus. > > Which makes it really difficult to understand why you can take stances like this. > > Because for every word Jesus had to say about repenting of particular sins of commission, He had twice as much to say about people who used the Law as a means to justify their own behavior (by interpreting it out of shape) while judging other people by it. > > I think there would not be a person on this board who had a problem with your saying, “Well, _I_ wouldn’t engage in sex with another woman, because I can see in the Bible that God condemns it. What you do and whether you’ll risk His judgment is up to you, but I feel honor-bound to point that out.” > > What a lot of us are saying is that we as Christians have a direct command from our Lord to show compassion and friendship – agape love – towards all other people, and particularly those whom society stands in judgment over. Read practically everything He said to the Pharisees, especially the Parables of the Prodigal Son and the Good Samaritan (remembering that Samaritans were evil half-caste heretics to the Jews). Read the Parable of the Sheep and Goats. > > And the “hypocrite” thing results, not from you having gone through a divorce – there are few of us who would condemn you for divorcing your first husband after seeing your comments on what that marriage was like, and those who would deserve to be guests of honor at their very own Pit threads, IMHO – but from your apparent judgmentalism towards gay people combined with your willingness to “bend” a literal reading of Jesus’s teaching on divorce to justify what you felt it necessary to do. > > You aren’t gay; you don’t have a feel for what it must be like to be gay. So stop, listen, understand what they’re saying. Then, in love, advise them as you see fit based on your understanding of what Jesus wants. > > I emphatically do not want you to “change your mind” on anything related to your salvation – you are following the Lord, and that’s what matters. I want you to do what He said to do. > > Slightly over two years ago, I said to **FriendOfGod** , in a very similar context, “Nowhere in Scripture does it say, ‘Go therefore forth and smite them about the head with thy Bible.’” I hope you see the point – you can use a Bible verse to hurt people with, as those who took Jesus’s teaching about divorce to chastize you did. In the name of the Lord God Almighty, I say to you, don’t do it. > > Show His love instead. > > Peace be with you. > > _Page 4, to **Shodan** _: > If it is my premise that a given set of rules is mandatory on humanity, then I am honorbound to follow that set of rules myself. I cannot find a way in which rule 3 applies to you, **Shodan** , and rule 4 condemning giving legal advice for money applies to **minty** ), but the reason that _I_ am not in violation of rule 7, which it looks like I am, is this carefully reconstructed loophole that I’ve come up with. > > If, on the other hand, I suggest that the set of rules is actually a bunch of guidelines on how to follow the Golden Rule, not stand-alone mandates on what you must do in a given situation, I will not be hypocritical in my (apparent) violation of rule 7 – but I had better not start condemning you and **Minty** for what looks like violations, either. > > Whether or not **His4Ever** is right about what God thinks about homosexuality based on the Bible has nothing to do with whether or not she’s right as regards her marriages. But if she feels that the Law applies verbatim to **Esprix** and **Gobear** , then it applies verbatim to her too. And if circumstances modify the way in which the law fits as regards her (divorce at whim does not equate to divorce from a violently abusive felon), then the same flexibility applies to them. > > It’s not who’s wrong or right in an absolute metaphysical sense; it’s about consistency, integrity in behavior. > > For all of me, **Gobear** can live his life as he wishes, though I wish he’d see his way clear to make his way back to a church that does not demonize gay men. And so can **His4Ever**. You see, I believe that God is at least as merciful as I am – and I would choose to see neither of them trapped by legalisms. > > _Also on Page 4, not directed at a specific poster_: > My reading of the two Scriptural prohibitions referred to indicates that they are not applicable to the cases in view here. Jesus was not condemning the case of a woman abused by a monster to whom she had married, but rather the idea that a man might disavow the woman he had committed himself to in order to justify taking in marriage the woman he had since developed the hots for. Likewise, Scripture does not condemn the union of two people in a covenanted marriage bond but the gratification of lusts – and IMHO that says nothing about the genders of the parties involved in the relationship. > > Quite simply, a merciful and compassionate God forgives any errors that **His4Ever** may have made in her past relationships and desires that she find happiness in the arms of the man she loves and who loves her, including lots of good hot wet sex, that he will provide for her and comfort her in sadness, rejoice with her in happiness, and that she is privileged to provide him with exactly the same, comforting him in sadness and rejoicing in his happiness. > > And exactly the same privilege is available to **gobear**. Quite simply, dear sister, you **need** to address these issues if you’re going to maintain any credibility as a witness for Him. You’re more than welcome to hold any views you choose – though it certainly helps if those views are able to be confirmed by evidence – but you need to be consistent in how you see things and to explain what you’re saying better than you have been. **Akhnaten** ’s tomb is empty too (there were grave robbers and pious Amonists desecrating the heretic pharaoh’s tomb). That doesn’t prove he was the Truth. I’ve tried to give some understanding of what I saw Jesus saying in that passage you quoted – and it doesn’t mean “only evangelical Christians who have claimed me in an altar call are worthy of saving;” far from it – it was said to a disciple despairing at his Master’s announcing His imminent departure, as part of a message of _comfort_. You’re more than welcome to proclaim the Gospel here – those of us who try to tell the Good News of Jesus here can always use more help – but the day you use my Lord and Savior to condemn other people and send them to Hell for not following your understanding of the Law, while excusing your own sins, you’ve made yourself over into a Pharisee in everybody’s eyes, including mine. In all sincerity and Christian compassion, start talking **with** the people here, even about your Lord and your love for Him, and not “preaching” at them with Scriptural quotes, and you’ll be amazed at the change in perception of you, and the change of attitudes _toward_ you. * * * In a thread that **Lynn** locked off for other reasons, **gobear** said: > [@](#): > > If you need a model to emulate, look at **Polycarp**. He’s not a pushover or a wimp, and doesn’t “say everybody is happy and nice.” He tells the truth, looks at both sides of a debate fairly, confesses when he is in the wrong, and does his best to serve God’s will as he sees it. He has compassion for his adversaries as well as his friends and _while he may argue forcefully, he never posts anything hurtful or demeaning to others_. Nice as this praise feels, I do not deserve it, and this is the precise thread to make a public apology in. Some months ago when we were having one of these Pitfests on approximately the same issues, I really laid **Jersey Diamond** out in lavender for her stance on the sinfulness of gay people, and the net effect that was having on the opinions of folks here about Christianity. I went over the top, and was duly called to task in a firm but calm e-mail by **Joe\_Cool** , which I agreed not to discuss online. I only mention it here because **Joe** was right; the things I’d said about **Jersey** were totally unfair and beyond proper criticism – never mind that they were said because of the effect her posts were having on the attitudes of people here towards the Man that all three of us call Lord. So, while I have no doubt you saw the response I made to **Joe** in e-mail, **Jersey** , since I castigated you publicly in the Pit, I want to make a public apology for going over the top and saying offensive things about your Christianity here in the Pit back then. I still feel that a more “we’re in this together” approach to witnessing works better than the “that’s a sin condemned in God’s Word” approach – but it does not justify – nothing could! – the language I used towards you. I’m sorry, and I want not just you but the board as a whole to know that I was out of line. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/227 "2002-12-08T20:36:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Hmmm, I want to talk to you again about Jesus being a dusty pile of bones, when you’re bowing before Him saying “Jesus is Lord”. \*\* Never going to happen. Only Allah is lord, and he is mightily displeased in you for continuing to worship his prophet as a god. I’ll be thinking of you when I am in the Garden of Paradise and you are writhing in the Infernal Pits for your apostasy. But it’s not too late. Allah is merciful, and if you repent your sinful ways he will make a place for you in Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/228 "2002-12-08T20:40:53Z")
Apology accepted. I like you, **Polycarp** , though there are clearly things we don’t and probably never will agree on. Your kindness is appreciated. And I told myself I was going to cut down on my posting on this board. I have other boards to visit. Anyway, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/229 "2002-12-08T20:46:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Never going to happen. Only Allah is lord, and he is mightily displeased in you for continuing to worship his prophet as a god. I’ll be thinking of you when I am in the Garden of Paradise and you are writhing in the Infernal Pits for your apostasy. But it’s not too late. Allah is merciful, and if you repent your sinful ways he will make a place for you in Heaven. \*\* I’m going to continue to trust Christ, thanks. Colossians 2:9 ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/230 "2002-12-08T20:49:20Z")
So, the only “evangelical” in this thread doesn’t get a reply, eh? I don’t know how to read that. Is that because you don’t know how to handle being told to lay off by someone who probably mostly agrees with you, or just what? Did you read that verse? It’s not an attack on you, just a piece of advice, if thought about for a while. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/231 "2002-12-08T20:58:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cardinal \* > \*\*So, the only “evangelical” in this thread doesn’t get a reply, eh? I don’t know how to read that. Is that because you don’t know how to handle being told to lay off by someone who probably mostly agrees with you, or just what? Did you read that verse? It’s not an attack on you, just a piece of advice, if thought about for a while. \*\* Yes, I did read that verse and may e mail you and discuss it a little. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/232 "2002-12-08T21:00:28Z")
So, when you say you are going to leave a thread, His4Ever, why don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/233 "2002-12-08T21:01:59Z")
Your trust is misplaced, **His4Ever**. If you don’t recognize that Allah is the one true God and Mohammed is greatest prophet, you are surely damned. I care about you, **His4Ever** , and that’s why I don’t want you to have your entrails wound out of your abdomen by fork-tongued devils. And neither does Allah. So shape up, or else! ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/234 "2002-12-08T21:47:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > What’s the point, you don’t listen to anything I say? You’re correct in that I don’t _agree_ with your interpretation of many of the Bible verses you’ve quoted. But to say that I don’t listen to anything you say makes me a much better guesser of what you’re going to say than I really am. > [@](#): > > Or always find some fault with it, or twist it around and wind up saying that I said something I didn’t. I find fault with your logic and your lack of contextual perspective, yes. I’m not the only one here who does, and you’re not the only person with whom I disagree on several of the items in which you profess undying, “This is the truth, forever and ever” belief in. As for the latter, do you have a cite of this handy? That I try to clarify your position so I can understand it better I’ll freely admit to; if I’ve changed your words to the effect that they do not accurately represent your beliefs, please let me know. > [@](#): > > You’re always right and I’m always wrong, what else is new? Is that a puddle of **H4e** I see on the ground? Dear, I think you’re melting… ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/235 "2002-12-08T22:19:57Z")
His4ever wrote: > [@](#): > > I am not the way to heaven, Jesus is. Indeed. In fact, for many people, you appear to be an obstacle between them and heaven. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/236 "2002-12-09T00:23:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*I’m going to continue to trust Christ, thanks. > Colossians 2:9 \*\* WHOOOOOSHHH!!! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/237 "2002-12-09T01:29:44Z")
> [@](#): > > **THERE IS NO SDMB CLIQUE** Which reminds me, the dues for clique members are needed by January 1, so get them in soon. If you remember from the last meeting, we need to do some work on the hot tub in the club house. The water from it is leaking into the billiards room on the second floor and while the snooker table is the only thing damaged so far, your dues will help with repairs. Also let me remind clique members that if we are going to get that group rate for the trip to Jamaica, we need to get our reservations in by Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/238 "2002-12-09T03:52:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TV time \* > \*\*Which reminds me, the dues for clique members are needed by January 1, so get them in soon. If you remember from the last meeting, we need to do some work on the hot tub in the club house. The water from it is leaking into the billiards room on the second floor and while the snooker table is the only thing damaged so far, your dues will help with repairs. Also let me remind clique members that if we are going to get that group rate for the trip to Jamaica, we need to get our reservations in by Christmas. \*\* I sent mine in early. So much easier now that The master started taking paypal and our Cecil Adams Signiture Edition Cell phones have gotten web access, so we can pay pool side. I still look forward to the day they just take it out of my check pre-tax, so I dont have to file that special form with the IRS to deduct it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/239 "2002-12-09T04:00:24Z")
They told me I had to have at least 2,000 posts before I would be _considered_ for the clique. Now I know… I was being fed a line. I’ll necer have enough posts to get in. Is there somebody I can sleep with as to move up the ladder? ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724/240 "2002-12-09T04:05:18Z")
**Coldie** Does this mean that people can’t believe in sin and say on this board what they believe those sins are? I’m not being sarcastic or snotty. I mean, if someone here said that, say, Palestinian bombers were morally wrong, I don’t think it would be jumped on any more than lots of other disputed opinions. So, if His4ever has an unpopular opinion here about what’s immoral, is that the problem in itself, or is it the presentation of the opinion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/untruthful-accusations/139724.md?page=13)