# Unusual substitution in Sunday night's Cubs game **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 16, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191 "2009-07-16T04:00:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ponch8](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponch8/32/9883_2.png) [@Ponch8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponch8)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/1 "2009-07-16T04:00:53Z")
Sunday night in the second game of the double header, Cubs manager Lou Pinella made some substitutions that I have never seen before, but I wonder why they’re not done more often: Lefty Sean Marshall is pitching for the Cubs and pitches to one batter. Then, a right-handed Cardinal (Brendan Ryan) comes up to bat, so Pinella inserts a right-handed pitcher. Normally, Marshall would be taken out of the game at this point. However, Pinella put Marshall in left field for Ryan’s at-bat. After that at-bat was concluded, lefty Skip Schumaker was scheduled to bat, so Marshall resumed his pitching duties. A new left fielder also entered the game. (Incidentally, Schumaker was then taken down for a right-handed pinch hitter.) The advantage to this series of moves is that it saves an arm in the bullpen in case the game went into extra innings and they needed all the pitchers they can get. Also, Marshall is about the only effective lefty in the Cubs bullpen. The disadvantage would be that the ball could have been hit to Marshall when he was playing left field. Marshall probably isn’t known for his excellent outfield skills. ---
**Author:** ![Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/db5fbb/32.png) [@Hirka\_T\_Bawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hirka_T_Bawa)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/2 "2009-07-16T06:04:58Z")
I’ve saw Bobby Cox of the Braves do this last season. It is something of a gamble though, but it can pay off. But the whole thing with baseball it doesn’t pay off, everyone will start second guessing the manager. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/3 "2009-07-16T07:07:14Z")
Definitely something that should be more common. Much like abolishing the closer and using your best RP in the toughest situation. It would be interesting if a team, maybe a low budget one like the Pirates or Nationals, were to do this regularly and made an effort to acquire pitchers with good outfield gloves and practiced them that way. I have to think that it’d be worth a try and would put some asses in the seats at the least while you tested it out. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/4 "2009-07-16T11:12:02Z")
I know nothing excites me more than lineup substitutions. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/5 "2009-07-16T11:40:51Z")
I recall this happening once back in the 80s. The manager quipped post-game that his pitcher had just relieved himself in front of 25000 people. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/6 "2009-07-16T12:51:21Z")
I like the fact that Yahoo has absolutely no idea what happened in the game. They list an “Unknown” in the box score, and weren’t able to describe what happened in the play-by-play: [Yahoo’s Box Score](http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore?gid=290712316) [Yahoo’s Play-by-Play](http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore?gid=290712316&page=plays) [ESPN’s Box Score](http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=290712316) [ESPN’s Play-by-Play](http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/playbyplay?gameId=290712316) ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/7 "2009-07-16T14:50:49Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I recall this happening once back in the 80s. The manager quipped post-game that his pitcher had just relieved himself in front of 25000 people. It was Davey Johnson of the Mets, and he kept shuttling Jesse Orosco and Roger McDowell in extra innings between LF and the mound, depending on the platoon advantage. I’ll try to find the game in question… ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/8 "2009-07-16T15:23:23Z")
An interesting move, although I understand why it doesn’t happen much. It seems like the type of thing you’d have to practice a lot for you to have any confidence in your pitcher in the outfield, but a pitcher’s practice time is often pretty valuable already. Left field may traditionally be the easiest defensive position to play, but most pitchers probably haven’t played it since little league, so they’ll have little experience reading a fly ball off the bat, positioning themselves, or picking up the ball on a bounce or carom off the wall. I don’t think I’d try it with men on base. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![TheFifthYear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@TheFifthYear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFifthYear)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/9 "2009-07-16T15:35:00Z")
I was at that game, and had never seen or heard of it happening before. The crowd really went wild when Marshall ran out to relieve Soriano. Would have loved to hear what Sean said to him: “Hey Alfonso, you’re in my spot.” I can’t help but think that it all could have gone very, very wrong had a ball been hit to Marshall in left. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/10 "2009-07-16T15:38:57Z")
Bill James has a column about this in his book about managers. He concludes that it’s probably a bad play because of the fielding liability and because it usually costs a superior bat. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/11 "2009-07-16T15:54:47Z")
I recall this happening with the Cleveland Indians while Alvin Dark was manager (late 60s into 1970s). Dark would put ace lefty Sam McDowell at 2nd base for a batter or two and then return McDowell to the mound. Then, as now, the Indians bullpen was a frightful thing for an Indians’ fan. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/12 "2009-07-16T16:41:25Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > It was Davey Johnson of the Mets, and he kept shuttling Jesse Orosco and Roger McDowell in extra innings between LF and the mound, depending on the platoon advantage. I’ll try to find the game in question… If this is the game I remember, there was an added quirk. The Mets were forced to play Rusty Staub, who at that point in his career was used exclusively as a pinch-hitter, in the outfield. He and Orosco would alternate between left and right field depending on whether a left-handed or right-handed hitter was batting. The result was that Orosco was playing each hitter to pull, while Staub was stationed in the opposite-field slot. Yes, Johnson (or whoever was manager) had more confidence in the fielding ability of Orosco than in the defensive prowess of one-time outfielder Staub, a gourmet who at that point looked more like he did [here](http://selenewines.setupmyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/Bob,%20Rusty%20&%20Mia.jpg) (he’s in the middle) than he did [as a youngster with the Astros.](http://www.astrosdaily.com/1965/Staub1.jpg) **zamboniracer** : I recall an Indians broadcast during which Herb Score announced that McDowell would be playing first base for a batter or two. McDowell somehow muffed a play (not sure if he booted a grounder or dropped a throw) that led to a run. The Tribe probably lost by a margin greater than one that night, though, so McDowell’s misadventure as a corner infielder probably didn’t mean the difference between victory and defeat. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/13 "2009-07-16T17:04:45Z")
I saw a game once where Staub was thrown out at 2nd on a routine hit to rightfield. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/14 "2009-07-16T17:07:30Z")
I recall Whitey Herzog doing this in a playoff game against the Dodgers - it must have been 1985 - with Todd Worrel and Ken Dayley if I remember right. May or may not have been the game that Jack Clark won with a walk-off homer to take the series. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/15 "2009-07-16T17:13:56Z")
> [@stuthehistoryguy](#): > > Bill James has a column about this in his book about managers. He concludes that it’s probably a bad play because of the fielding liability and because it usually costs a superior bat. YMMV. That’s the rub. Unlike a conventional double-switch, you end up with the pitcher in the same spot in the line-up after you’re done. The typical NL team these days only has 5 bench position players, and you have to burn one when your pitcher moves back to the mound. In Sunday’s game, the Cubs had to burn Reed Johnson. I believe the first documented use of this strategy was by Paul Richards during the 1950’s, when he temporarily shuffled Harry Dorish off to third base (against a left-handed pull hitter, no doubt). Whitey Herzog used to use it _frequently_ during the 1980’s. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/16 "2009-07-16T21:07:56Z")
> [@TheFifthYear](#): > > I can’t help but think that it all could have gone very, very wrong had a ball been hit to Marshall in left. Yeah, but things often go very wrong when balls are hit to Soriano in left, too! Calculations of how much you are giving up defensively depend on how good the “real” outfielder is in the first place, and Soriano currently is, at best, just barely adequate. You would also want to take into account whether the one-hitter reliever you are bringing in tends to give up more fly balls vs. ground balls. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/17 "2009-07-16T21:35:56Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Yeah, but things often go very wrong when balls are hit to Soriano in left, too! Calculations of how much you are giving up defensively depend on how good the “real” outfielder is in the first place, and Soriano currently is, at best, just barely adequate. You would also want to take into account whether the one-hitter reliever you are bringing in tends to give up more fly balls vs. ground balls. There are a ton of hitters who are essentially dead pull hitters, especially amongst lefties, so the defensive liability is probably something that is completely manageable if the pitching matchups are that good. Predictably, the Cubs are probably doing it wrong. In keeping Marshall in the game it probably made more sense to move him to RF instead of LF when a right handed batter came up. You want that weak fielder in the opposite field. And Bradley isn’t exactly a irreplaceable bat these days. It should be noted that this happened in the second game of a Double Header. Pinella was probably pretty much out of usable arms by the time this happened. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/18 "2009-07-16T22:25:13Z")
[Here’s an article](http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090712&content_id=5854550&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl) describing what happened. A couple of excerpts: > [@](#): > > “It was fun to be a part of that, no matter how it turns out,” Cardinals manager Tony La Russa said. “It takes creativity and it takes guts, and Lou showed both of them.” > [@](#): > > The Cubs pitchers are required to shag flies in the outfield so they are prepared for anything. In the last game before the All-Star break and the second game of a day-night doubleheader, anything goes. > > “I think I could’ve handled it,” Marshall said about making a defensive play so far from the mound. “In high school and Little League, I played outfield. It wasn’t completely unfamiliar to me. In the big leagues, it’s a lot faster. Heilman did a great job of getting that guy out and gave me a chance to come in and finish the inning.” > > As Marshall headed out to left, some of the Cubs relievers joked with him. He had to break the news to Soriano, who was a little confused at the sight of the lefty trotting toward him. ---
**Author:** ![whitetho](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whitetho/32/1059_2.png) [@whitetho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whitetho)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/19 "2009-07-16T22:46:59Z")
Many decades ago, I vaguely remember this happening at a Washington Senators game. And, if my vague memory is to be trusted, the pitcher temporarily became the second baseman, where he cleanly handled a grounder. ---
**Author:** ![TheFifthYear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@TheFifthYear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFifthYear)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191/20 "2009-07-17T02:01:32Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Yeah, but things often go very wrong when balls are hit to Soriano in left, too! Calculations of how much you are giving up defensively depend on how good the “real” outfielder is in the first place, and Soriano currently is, at best, just barely adequate. You would also want to take into account whether the one-hitter reliever you are bringing in tends to give up more fly balls vs. ground balls. Great points. If there was one defensive player to yank in order to minimize the defensive downgrade, Soriano had to be it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unusual-substitution-in-sunday-nights-cubs-game/503191.md?page=2)