# Unwed moms and unsexy men **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684 "2009-07-11T15:53:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/21 "2009-07-11T19:23:21Z")
I would say, actually that “unsexy” men probably have a better chance, at least of fathering her second child, and certainly of gaining a LTR. The short version: Celtling’s Dad and I were engaged (or in the process) at the time we conceived, and formally engaged when she was born. He proved to be a lazy and surly domestic partner, however, so I sent him on his way. In my current status, a “sexy man” (I’m assuming you mean cool, alpha male type who cruises for women.) would want little to do with me, nor I with him. I have no interest whatsoever in going out to clubs or socializing on the “see and be seen” circuit. My friends are quiet intellectual types who mostly also have children. (Which was always the case, but I did make forays into the club scene occasionally) So, it stands to reason that my next partner (should there be one, and I must say I’ve got zero interest at the moment) would be more the “nerdy” or at least intellectual type. I don’t forsee a race of “Mimbo” babystarters being preyed upon by women for their sperm if that’s what you suggest. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/22 "2009-07-11T20:55:38Z")
This strikes me as more of the same unimaginative reversal of fortunes nonsense that people have been peddling since the 60s, the idea that if one group isn’t oppressed that they must oppress the previous oppressors. It’s silly and without a whole lot of merit. There are plenty of single Mothers, but the number of them that are completely self-sufficient are unsurprisingly pretty low. A lot are on welfare and have support from grandparents or both. Then there are many who resort to Prostitution, or who are drug addicted and in poverty. There is very little merit in the idea presented by the OP, because it operates under the assumption that single Mothers are some prize catch for the sexy men. Single Mothers by their very nature have limited options in terms of who they can attract as a potential mate. They’ll take what they can get like they always have and will choose by many different criteria, as they are individuals and not just statistical fodder. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/23 "2009-07-11T21:08:08Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > There are plenty of single Mothers, but the number of them that are completely self-sufficient are unsurprisingly _ **pretty low** _. _ **A lot** _ are on welfare and have support from grandparents or both. Then there are _ **many** _ who resort to Prostitution, or who are drug addicted and in poverty. (emphasis mine) I’d be curious to see these vague phrases quantified. By “pretty low” are we talking in the ballpark of 1%, 10%, or 40%? Are there any good studies on this or are we just guessing? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/24 "2009-07-11T21:30:26Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > EDIT: **you with the face** , the absence of fathers is a topic for another thread, but suffice it to say that your view is narrow-minded. There are plenty of other causes of this problem, such as the perverse incentives of welfare, and many of these causes were advocated for by feminists, not male playa’s. When have I said otherwise? All I take issue with is the kneejerk assumption that female irresponsibility and promiscuity is to blame for fatherless children. Your thesis is perpetuating that notion by framing the issue around sexual freedom of women. And I agree with **TruCelt**. Now that women are financially independent, low-wage earning men with positive qualities (like nurturing abilities) have a better shot at getting love. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/25 "2009-07-11T21:34:38Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > (emphasis mine) > > I’d be curious to see these vague phrases quantified. By “pretty low” are we talking in the ballpark of 1%, 10%, or 40%? Are there any good studies on this or are we just guessing? > **[Contact Webauthor](https://www.webauthor.com/contact?schedule=1&nosite=true&host=www.poverty.smartlibrary.org&d=GroupXM)** > > All-in-one business applications that helps you organize, manage and grow your business > [@](#): > > Who is On Welfare? > > ``` > * About half of black and Hispanic single mothers are on welfare, while about 34% of white single mothers are. Of the total number of welfare recipients in this country, 39.8% are black, 38.8% are white, and 15.7% are Hispanic. > > * Most mothers on welfare have had their children out of wedlock. In 1973 the largest single welfare category used to be women who were separated or divorced. Today it is women who have never been married. > > * Almost 75% of AFDC households have only one or two children. Only 10% of such households have four or more children. > > * 15.6% of mothers on welfare are 21 or younger, 39.5% are aged 22 to 29, while 31.5% are 30 to 39, and 13.4% are 40 or older. > > ``` Can’t find statistics regarding prostitution. But essentially the idea that single Mothers are at the top of the food chain when it comes to dating is pretty silly. As pointed out above by **TruCelt** , the hot young studs are not out looking for a single Mommy. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/26 "2009-07-11T21:36:09Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If men aren’t sticking around to be good daddies when a baby comes along, I agree that that’s bad. But it is curious to me why that must be seen as the woman’s fault. But the OP’s post is positing that it’s the woman that’s giving the man the boot. > [@](#): > > Perhaps this is the solution to the dilemma: let’s start telling boys to do what we used to (and still do) tell girls. Don’t put out unless she promises to marry you. Don’t degrade yourself by having sex with women who only want what’s in your pants. Stop sleeping around and you’re more likely to find someone who loves you for you. An interesting reversal, and one that would solve a lot of problems. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/27 "2009-07-11T21:45:16Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > (emphasis mine) > > I’d be curious to see these vague phrases quantified. By “pretty low” are we talking in the ballpark of 1%, 10%, or 40%? Are there any good studies on this or are we just guessing? Depends on what exactly you are asking - 31% of all single parents receive public assistance. ([Cite](http://singleparents.about.com/od/legalissues/p/portrait.htm)). This matches pretty closely with the percentage of custodial single mothers are not employed. > [@Richard Parker](#): > > It seems plausible that the increase is equally due to an increase in the number of stable couples who choose not to marry (or who are not legally allowed to do so), or who have kids before marriage. Doesn’t seem to be the case - only about 10%, in fact [(cite - PDF)](http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:6WwMTF_oxP0J:www.clasp.org/publications/cohabation_snapshot.pdf+length+of+relationship+married+vs+cohabit&hl=en&gl=us) > [@](#): > > As I said, I have no data, but there is this meta-datum: I agree with Robin that society is likely to underestimate the impact on this on men who cannot find wives (or are negatively impacted by the shrinking pool of women interested in marriage), both because women and children are considered more sympathetic than men, and because complaining men look weak and will not be given proportional attention. I think this effect, even if real, is drowned out by the rise in the numbers of men who have never been socialized into seeking, or be able or willing to maintain, a long term relationship. Pretty much any social pathology you can mention is made worse by the absence of a long-term male figure growing up. Being raised by a single parent, mostly a mother, correlates to increased rates of crime, divorce, drug abuse, mental illness, lower earnings as an adult, etc., etc. (You don’t need a cite for any of this.) I would expect that the main effect would be an increase in the willingness for women, especially single mothers, to settle for men who are less desirable in terms of earning potential (as well as criminal background, emotional immaturity or instability, etc.) Men perceive women with someone else’s children in tow as less desirable, Therefore the single mothers, if they want to marry or form a LTR, have a smaller pool of “desirable” men to draw on. This is much of the basis for the complaint that “the good ones are taken” that you hear, especially from women of a certain age. Once one is past the mid-twenties or so, those who are capable of entering into a stable marriage (or the small minority of those who cohabit long-term) do so already, and remove themselves from the marriage market. So the 27 year old women with a child has to find a partner from those who are already-divorced, afraid or unwilling to commit, or have no stable employment, or already did a stretch in prison. It’s not universal but it is a pretty clear factor. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/28 "2009-07-11T21:58:22Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But the OP’s post is positing that it’s the woman that’s giving the man the boot. I know that’s what he positing. And I question that the rise in single moms should be attributed to women dumping men. Is there reason to believe men aren’t doing the dumping? A man walking away from his pregnant girlfriend used to be unthinkable during the good ole days when unplanned pregnancy automatically resulted in people marrying. Now that this social expectation isn’t as strong, its easier for men to walk away from the women they impregnate. And furthermore, is there reason to believe that the men being dumped (if that’s what is happening) aren’t being dumped for good reason? I know few women who would prefer being a single mom as opposed to being a mom with a good man by a side to father their kids. Since common sense tells me that the financial and psychological costs of being a single parent drastically overweigh the benefits that comes with sexual liberation, that tells me women may be choosing to go it alone for reasons that shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. The OP asks what, if anything, can be done about this. Figuring out why it’s occuring is an important step. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/29 "2009-07-11T22:03:41Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > An interesting reversal, and one that would solve a lot of problems. I don’t see how? How is turning men into the subservient sex any better than keeping women as the subservient sex? Why is having a subservient sex desirable at all? ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/30 "2009-07-11T22:05:30Z")
I see, and that’s a possible interpretation of the facts. How would we distinguish the two hypotheses? One would be a population-level survey of female vs. male dating strategy, but that’s too difficult to do. Would it change your mind to note that between[two-thirds](http://marriage.rutgers.edu/Publications/pubtoptenmyths.htm) and three-quarters of divorces are initiated by women? That’s not the actions of people clinging to whoever they can get, though you could argue, if you like, that among married couples husbands are significantly worse than wives. Ideally, we could also look at what Robin posits: the rise in sexual inequality among men (Gini coefficient!). Again, difficult to do. Any other ideas to distinguish the two hypotheses? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/31 "2009-07-11T22:18:03Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > I see, and that’s a possible interpretation of the facts. How would we distinguish the two hypotheses? One would be a population-level survey of female vs. male dating strategy, but that’s too difficult to do. > > Would it change your mind to note that between[two-thirds](http://marriage.rutgers.edu/Publications/pubtoptenmyths.htm) and three-quarters of divorces are initiated by women? That’s not the actions of people clinging to whoever they can get, though you could argue, if you like, that among married couples husbands are significantly worse than wives. > > Ideally, we could also look at what Robin posits: the rise in sexual inequality among men (Gini coefficient!). Again, difficult to do. Any other ideas to distinguish the two hypotheses? I seriously doubt we’re seeing a bunch of women with children divorcing or otherwise ending stable relationships. I think it’s much more likely that we’re seeing what has always existed: men knocking up women and not supporting the children they’ve made. I suppose statistics on child support claims would give you an idea of the prevalence of this. Again, the blog in the OP has come up with a hypothesis with incomplete data. Just the simple fact that single mothers account for 40% of U.S. births doesn’t tell us anything. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/32 "2009-07-11T22:19:54Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Would it change your mind to note that between[two-thirds](http://marriage.rutgers.edu/Publications/pubtoptenmyths.htm) and three-quarters of divorces are initiated by women? That’s not the actions of people clinging to whoever they can get, though you could argue, if you like, that among married couples husbands are significantly worse than wives. Aside from the fact this doesn’t address couples who aren’t married (which I was talking about in my last post), the above still leaves unanswered the question of _why_ these divorces are occuring. If women are divorcing men because of male infidelity or other problems, what should be society’s response to this? ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/33 "2009-07-11T22:33:46Z")
Well, again, you can square the divorce statistic with your hypothesis of normal women chasing commitment-phobic men, but _only if_ you assert that in an average relationship, the man is worse than the woman, on some relationship metric. In this scenario, after men became commitment-phobic, then some married women ditched the worst-performing men. But because of the shortage of marriage-minded men, the remainder would be willing to tolerate somewhat worse performance, hence the average married woman is better than the average married man. Do you agree with this description? ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/34 "2009-07-11T22:36:41Z")
I think we might better approach this question by splitting it in two. 1. More unwed moms means more fluid (less monogamous) relationships. This inherently benefits high-status men and sex-seeking women, at the expense of low-status men and relationship-seeking women. (Ignore for now how we are going to _define_ status). Is this happening, what is your remedy, etc. 2. More unwed moms changes the _definition_ of male status, such that that helpfulness in raising children is less valued and other factors (presumably sexual attractiveness) are more valued. Is this happening, what is your remedy, etc. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/35 "2009-07-11T22:40:10Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > I think we might better approach this question by splitting it in two. > > 1. More unwed moms means more fluid (less monogamous) relationships. This inherently benefits high-status men and sex-seeking women, at the expense of low-status men and relationship-seeking women. (Ignore for now how we are going to _define_ status). Is this happening, what is your remedy, etc. > > 2. More unwed moms changes the _definition_ of male status, such that that helpfulness in raising children is less valued and other factors (presumably sexual attractiveness) are more valued. Is this happening, what is your remedy, etc. 1. Unwed doesn’t mean polygamous. 2. What do the unsexy women (with a kid!) do in this situation? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/36 "2009-07-11T22:49:25Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > There are plenty of single Mothers, but the number of them that are completely self-sufficient are unsurprisingly pretty low > [@Shodan](#): > > 31% of all single parents receive public assistance. Welfare isn’t a perfect test for self-sufficiency, but I imagine it’s pretty close. If the number of self-sufficient single mothers is the vast majority of them, I’m not sure it makes sense to argue that “Single Mothers by their very nature have limited options in terms of who they can attract as a potential mate . . . [t]hey’ll take what they can get” because of their economic situation. > [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Richard Parker](#): > > > > It seems plausible that the increase is equally due to an increase in the number of stable couples who choose not to marry (or who are not legally allowed to do so), or who have kids before marriage. > > Doesn’t seem to be the case - only about 10%, in fact. I’m not sure where you’re getting the 10% figure from. The report, which is now over a decade old, shows that twenty years ago about 15% of children reported as living in a single-parent household resided with a cohabiting couple. The report also notes that cohabitation has increased by an order of magnitude since the 1970s while simultaneously the number of such couples with children has increased. So the number is certainly even higher than that two decades on. > [@Shodan](#): > > Being raised by a single parent, mostly a mother, correlates to increased rates of crime, divorce, drug abuse, mental illness, lower earnings as an adult, etc., etc. (You don’t need a cite for any of this.) I do need a cite for it, preferably an actual quantitative study that controls for race, parental education, and income. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/37 "2009-07-11T22:53:25Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Single Mothers by their very nature have limited options in terms of who they can attract as a potential mate. They’ll take what they can get like they always have and will choose by many different criteria, as they are individuals and not just statistical fodder. Erm… this is different from everyone else how, exactly? I’ve never once found that being a single mother limited my dating prospects. On the contrary, my unwillingness to have MORE children was a much bigger issue. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/38 "2009-07-11T22:57:00Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Well, again, you can square that fact with your hypothesis of normal women chasing commitment-phobic men, but _only if_ you assert that in an average relationship, the man is worse than the woman, on some relationship metric. Not at all. I just don’t like making assumptions. There’s nothing implausible about women getting fed up with behaviors they used to turn a blind eye to and using the divorce option. Look at what you wrote earlier in this thread: > [@athelas](#): > > (Why not among women? Because women are currently more tolerant of infidelity than men are, and there is more of a stigma for a woman with multiple partners than for men.) You say that women are tolerant of infidelity, but guess what? That’s changing. Now that women are more capable of fending for themselves, they are less likely to accept husbands who sleep around behind their backs. That said, there could be any number of reasons why women are ending relationships, some justifiable and some not. You don’t have any data that can clue us in to where the problems lie. All you have is speculation that for some reason is focused on women. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/39 "2009-07-11T22:59:52Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Erm… this is different from everyone else how, exactly? Do I really need to answer this? You never in your experience met a guy that didn’t want to date someone with kids? Seriously? It’s different from everyone else in its particulars. How else can this be answered really? Bachelors are often unwilling to take on the responsibility of raising someone else’s kids. > [@](#): > > I’ve never once found that being a single mother limited my dating prospects. On the contrary, my unwillingness to have MORE children was a much bigger issue. And you agree with my point here but phrase it as a disagreement. People didn’t want to date you because you wanted them to help raise another man’s child, but didn’t want to allow them to raise their own. So by your own admission being a single Mother was a significant contributing factor to dating troubles. If you are arguing that everyone has dating standards and that everyone falls outside of the dating standards of some people, then you aren’t really saying anything of note. Being a single Mother definitely precludes your ability to get with a lot of the hot young studs. Also based on my discussions with my sister regarding why she doesn’t date guys her own age, it’s because she’s a single Mother and requires someone more mature who can handle that she has a kid, that definitely selects whole swaths of her peer cohort from being eligible. Then of course there is the obvious that you have less time to go out and date and spend every waking hour in a cuddly amore like young unattached individuals can. No leaving for the club on Friday night and not coming home until Sunday night for you, unless you have some mitigating factors that make your case unique or at least unusual. I live with my wife and have one kid with another on the way. There are two of us raising the kid(s) and yet we still don’t go out and party like we once did. Hell, as much as I love my wife I see women I’d like to sleep with on a daily basis, but the amount of work it would require for me to date someone else is simply too daunting a task to even seriously contemplate it. Maybe you balanced your dating life like a champ, but that’s not the norm. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/40 "2009-07-11T23:05:26Z")
I never did meet a man who considered it an issue, but admittedly, I wasn’t looking for someone to raise my kid, and I didn’t want to get married. I’m pretty sure I’m not unique in this regard, and I’m simply suggesting that maybe the reason these women aren’t getting married is because they don’t want to. Is it so unfathomable that a woman may decide it’s more trouble than it’s worth? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684.md?page=3)