# Unwed moms and unsexy men **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684 "2009-07-11T15:53:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/41 "2009-07-11T23:10:57Z")
I agree with **mwas**. Between a single mom and childfree woman, the latter will have an easier time dating, all other things equal. That’s not to say that single mom never get dates, of course. But it’s harder for moms. That’s why its ludicrous to think that single moms are dumping all these men just so that they can enjoy no strings attached sex with someone else. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/42 "2009-07-12T00:42:56Z")
I’m not sure. Thing is, blending families is a big ol’ pain in the ass, as a rule. Marriage and or living together by definition requires a certain amount of co-parenting. First of all, if I were interested in co-parenting, I’d have given it a shot with her father, and secondly, unless your kid(s) are very small when said marriage or cohabitation occurs, there’s already a family dynamic in place, to which adding an agent is disruptive and downright intrusive, and you’re not easily gonna get past that “You’re not my father!” thing. For me, the idea of playing referee for years was way too exhausting to contemplate. Again, I will concede that my situation and way of thinking may be unusual, but I certainly wouldn’t presume that they’re unique. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/43 "2009-07-12T01:11:52Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I never did meet a man who considered it an issue, but admittedly, I wasn’t looking for someone to raise my kid, and I didn’t want to get married. I’m pretty sure I’m not unique in this regard, and I’m simply suggesting that maybe the reason these women aren’t getting married is because they don’t want to. Is it so unfathomable that a woman may decide it’s more trouble than it’s worth? Well then you live in a bizarre world where even reality conforms to your own particular biases and needs. I have run across both types myself, and I am not seeking to date them. Your descriptions do sound like you are in a VERY unique position. I don’t know how you would find the time to date. I hardly ever go to movies and I have a wife to co-parent with. It’s another $ 75 on top of the price of dinner and a movie just to get out of the house for 5 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/44 "2009-07-12T18:39:33Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > 1. More unwed moms changes the _definition_ of male status, such that that helpfulness in raising children is less valued and other factors (presumably sexual attractiveness) are more valued. Is this happening, what is your remedy, etc. I don’t see why “helpfulness with raising children” would be less valued, in this circumstance. It seems to me that, if there are more single moms on the dating scene, being good with children would increase your chances, not decrease them. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/45 "2009-07-12T18:58:03Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Welfare isn’t a perfect test for self-sufficiency, but I imagine it’s pretty close. If the number of self-sufficient single mothers is the vast majority of them, I’m not sure it makes sense to argue that “Single Mothers by their very nature have limited options in terms of who they can attract as a potential mate . . . [t]hey’ll take what they can get” because of their economic situation. Not exactly economic, but by the fact that women with (someone else’s) children are less desirable as mates. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure where you’re getting the 10% figure from. From the cite. It says that for one tenth of cohabiters, cohabitation is a long term relationship that does not end in marriage. > [@](#): > > I do need a cite for it, preferably an actual quantitative study that controls for race, parental education, and income. No you don’t. The sky is blue, too but you will have to take my word for it. > [@you with the face](#): > > That said, there could be any number of reasons why women are ending relationships, some justifiable and some not. You don’t have any data that can clue us in to where the problems lie. Not just divorced women (or women ending stable long-term relationships) but never married women, or women whose relationship with their child’s father was never stable. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/46 "2009-07-12T20:05:51Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > There are plenty of single Mothers, but the number of them that are completely self-sufficient are unsurprisingly pretty low. A lot are on welfare and have support from grandparents or both. Then there are many who resort to Prostitution, or who are drug addicted and in poverty. Wow. Then there are those of us who earn six-figure salaries. I’d be willing to bet we outnumber the prostitutes. I find it difficult to believe that some huge number of women out there are OK with prostitution, but not with abortion or collecting welfare. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/47 "2009-07-12T21:01:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > From the cite. It says that for one tenth of cohabiters, cohabitation is a long term relationship that does not end in marriage. But that’s not the number we were talking about. We were talking about the proportion of single mothers who cohabit. As indicated in your own numbers, that percentage is at least 20% and probably higher. > [@Shodan](#): > > No you don’t. The sky is blue, too but you will have to take my word for it. I prefer not to take extraordinary statements on faith. We know that single motherhood correlates with poverty and education level, to some degree. We also know that those factors correlate strongly with crime. The natural consequence, then, is that single motherhood correlates with crime because it correlates with these other factors. If you want to show that single motherhood is itself a cause of crime, that requires a touch of evidence. Let me know if you dig some up. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/48 "2009-07-12T22:20:00Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Wow. > > Then there are those of us who earn six-figure salaries. I’d be willing to bet we outnumber the prostitutes. I find it difficult to believe that some huge number of women out there are OK with prostitution, but not with abortion or collecting welfare. I don’t know about prostitutes but if you included strippers I would bet that those working in the sex industry outnumbers the 100K earners (and there is probably some overlap between the two). ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/49 "2009-07-12T22:35:10Z")
Did you ever watch Maury Povich, or Jerry Springer or take a good look around? There are a LOT of single moms with babies who have criminals, deadbeats, losers and various forms of PWT and other colors. I guess sexy includes a lot of things 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/50 "2009-07-13T00:55:13Z")
If I understand the OP correctly, what they’re saying is that men of modest (or little) sex appeal used to still have one thing to offer women: the willingness to commit to marriage and childrearing. If women aren’t interested in that, if all they want is a hot fling with a sperm donor, then where does that leave most men? It’s like being stuck in high school forever. Five percent of the guys have a James Bond-ish ability to have all the girls dripping with lust for them. Maybe half the guys can get laid if they work at it. And the bottom forty-five percent don’t have a chance. The idea of that being the permanent default condition of society is horrifying (unless you’re one of the lucky five percent.) ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/51 "2009-07-13T01:40:35Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > There are plenty of single Mothers, but the number of them that are completely self-sufficient are unsurprisingly pretty low. A lot are on welfare and have support from grandparents or both. Then there are many who resort to Prostitution, or who are drug addicted and in poverty. Hoo, yeah! Why, the just the other day as I was mooching off my parents my mother remarked that if it wasn’t for my drug problem, I’d be able to support myself off my prostitution money! She’s just sore because she thinks I’ll never land myself a shiftless criminal partner because of the kid but I don’t listen to her negative talk - I know someday the ex-con of my dreams will walk through the door and we’ll live happily ever after in our fluid relationship with my child until she grows up to be a criminal, divorced, drug-abusing, mentally-ill, lowly-paid adult. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/52 "2009-07-13T03:30:41Z")
> [@Cazzle](#): > > Hoo, yeah! Why, the just the other day as I was mooching off my parents my mother remarked that if it wasn’t for my drug problem, I’d be able to support myself off my prostitution money! She’s just sore because she thinks I’ll never land myself a shiftless criminal partner because of the kid but I don’t listen to her negative talk - I know someday the ex-con of my dreams will walk through the door and we’ll live happily ever after in our fluid relationship with my child until she grows up to be a criminal, divorced, drug-abusing, mentally-ill, lowly-paid adult. Your cute sarcasm doesn’t even address what I said. It’s not even an actual response to what I said. I never said that all single Mothers were in those conditions or that many were in all of the conditions. Come back when have argument that actually addresses what I said rather than some ignorant appeal to emotion. If you have ever been on welfare, or ever been dependent on your parents since being a single Mother then what I said DOES indeed apply to you. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/53 "2009-07-13T03:32:36Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Wow. > > Then there are those of us who earn six-figure salaries. I’d be willing to bet we outnumber the prostitutes. I find it difficult to believe that some huge number of women out there are OK with prostitution, but not with abortion or collecting welfare. Do I need to cite the definition of the words, “Many”, or “Most”? Maybe I need to cite the term, “Outlier” for you? I mean I should think anyone making that much money shouldn’t need such cites, that **many** , even \*\*most \*\*people making that much money have a vocabulary beyond the first grade level, but then, you might just be an **outlier**. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/54 "2009-07-13T03:36:15Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > If I understand the OP correctly, what they’re saying is that men of modest (or little) sex appeal used to still have one thing to offer women: the willingness to commit to marriage and childrearing. If women aren’t interested in that, if all they want is a hot fling with a sperm donor, then where does that leave most men? > > It’s like being stuck in high school forever. Five percent of the guys have a James Bond-ish ability to have all the girls dripping with lust for them. Maybe half the guys can get laid if they work at it. And the bottom forty-five percent don’t have a chance. The idea of that being the permanent default condition of society is horrifying (unless you’re one of the lucky five percent.) This thread is predicated on the fallacy that men were EVER in history on the favorable side of the breeding program. In fact the opposite is true. It’s something like 40% of men throughout history have been able to breed, with 80% of women. Women have always had the upper hand when it comes to choosing a mate despite all the dumbass feminist propaganda about how it favors the male, that’s simply not true. Most men throughout history have not had the opportunity to pass on their genes to another generation. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/55 "2009-07-13T12:43:47Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Your cute sarcasm doesn’t even address what I said. It’s not even an actual response to what I said. I never said that all single Mothers were in those conditions or that many were in all of the conditions. Come back when have argument that actually addresses what I said rather than some ignorant appeal to emotion. > > If you have ever been on welfare, or ever been dependent on your parents since being a single Mother then what I said DOES indeed apply to you. So I shouldn’t be offended that you claim many single mothers are drug addicted or prostitutes because you refrained from claiming that many single mothers are drug addicted AND prostitutes? I know NO singles mothers who are drug addicted or prostitutes. Am I living in some kind of single mother’s utopia, or are your claims that MANY single mothers are one or the other exaggerated? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/56 "2009-07-13T13:46:02Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **It’s something like 40% of men throughout history have been able to breed** , with 80% of women. While almost everything you’ve posted in this thread is woefully short of any provided evidence, I’ll start here. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/57 "2009-07-13T13:50:43Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > but then, you might just be an **outlier**. As opposed to the prostitutes? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/58 "2009-07-13T15:20:43Z")
Does unmarried always equal single in study-speak? As a few others have noted, i think these statistics say more about the state of marriage than the state of child rearing. Without knowing how many of these ‘single’ women are in monogamous relationships, these stats are next to meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/59 "2009-07-13T15:57:22Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Rather, women will favor “sexy men” at the expense of everyone else. Alcohol, the great equalizer. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684/60 "2009-07-13T15:59:57Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > It’s like being stuck in high school forever. Five percent of the guys have a James Bond-ish ability to have all the girls dripping with lust for them. Maybe half the guys can get laid if they work at it. And the bottom forty-five percent don’t have a chance. The idea of that being the permanent default condition of society is horrifying (unless you’re one of the lucky five percent.) I don’t believe anything like this is happening but if it were I think it’d be a great development. American men desperately need self improvement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwed-moms-and-unsexy-men/502684.md?page=4)