# Unwinnable "struggle" replaces the "war" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738 "2005-07-29T14:42:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/21 "2005-07-29T16:02:33Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Some of those guys aren’t getting out of that prison alive, and rightly so. “Rightly so”? Based on what have you determined that it’s right that they not come out alive? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/22 "2005-07-29T16:03:14Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Some of those guys aren’t getting out of that prison alive, and rightly so. Where I come from, we have to have trials and charges and a bunch of shit before we can even put them in prison, much less ensure they never get out. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/23 "2005-07-29T16:11:03Z")
Fortunately for Bush the Lesses, the Constitution doesn’t require a Congressional declaration of Struggle. Still, one wonders if the next SOTU will include a request that Congress pass and deliver for signature a “Struggle Powers Act”. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/24 "2005-07-29T16:19:46Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Where I come from, we have to have trials and charges and a bunch of shit before we can even put them in prison, much less ensure they never get out. What are you, some sort of commie? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/25 "2005-07-29T16:31:43Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Where I come from, we have to have trials and charges and a bunch of shit before we can even put them in prison, much less ensure they never get out. Why don’t you explain how the Roosevelt Administration erred when they set the precedent to deal with all of this that we’re using now. I refer again to the case of Herbert Haupt, Edward Kerling, Herman Neubauer, Richard Quirin and Werner Thiel, who were tried as enemy combatants by a military commission appointed on July 8, 1942 and then executed one month later at the District of Columbia Jail. The legality of this process was upheld at the time by the landmark case _ex parte Quirin_, and reaffirmed some weeks ago. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/26 "2005-07-29T16:35:30Z")
The word “war” carries implications of goals, rules, endpoints, defined enemies, and an expectation of victory. It was an effective rhetorical device for a while. It scared the sheep into thinking we were in some sort of danger, that we were defending ourselves and that we needed to get behind the leader. By now, though, the word has become more of a hindrance than a help. Those pesky implications that we should expect to “win,” or that this will ever be over are extremely inconvenient. The word “struggle” is open-ended and meaningless and carries no expectations. The word “extremist” is similarly vague and malleable. By changing the slogan, the White House has relieved itself of the burden of meeting expectations or following formal rules. I would like to know when the POTIS acquired the international authority to police the world for “extremists,” but that’s only because I hate America. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/27 "2005-07-29T16:42:43Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Well, aren’t these the same nitwits who started the war because of WMD? > They have no problem changing the parameters to fit their needs. > > Funny part is I’m a Reagan republican, ex-Navy, support the concept of freeing Iraq and I despise Bush. (The Republicans have abandoned me and I can’t stand the liberal side of the Dem’s. Voting for Kerry hurt!!!)) > > I feel they lied and created fake evidence to support effort. > I think Cheney is biggest crook in my lifetime, seems like he’s got Agnew beat. > They ignored advise of the only military expert in cabinet. (Powell) > Oh, and didn’t it look so much like Bush Jr. was desperate to complete Sr. mistake? We’re not as lonely as we think. I’m beginning to feel comfortable guessing that we’re a “silent majority.” Some folks use a term “South Prk Republicans” or “South Park Conservatives” ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/28 "2005-07-29T16:46:15Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > As John Stewart pointed out recently, the Bush administration has recently (within the past several months) introduced the term “struggle against global extremism” I believe the correct phrase was “global stuggle against violent extremism”, or [GSAVE](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/26/politics/26strategy.html?hp&ex=1122436800&en=84d917f2326e4105&ei=5094&partner=homepage). ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/29 "2005-07-29T16:55:51Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Some folks use a term “South Prk Republicans” or “South Park Conservatives” So, you are a republican, and you don’t like Bush. I can understand how this can happen. However, I don’t understand where the term South Park Republicans comes into the picture. After all, the author [South Park Conservatives : The Revolt Against Liberal Media Bias](http://www.manhattan-institute.org/southparkconservatives/reviews.html), seems to apply the term to young people who agree that Bush is always right, and that the “liberal media” is always wrong. Now, this is not to say I don’t cheer for republicans who dislike Bush. However, I was wondering how the term escaped from the author is such a short period of time. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Side\_of\_the\_Floyd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Dark\_Side\_of\_the\_Floyd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Side_of_the_Floyd)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/30 "2005-07-29T16:55:55Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Perhaps George could write a book entitled “My struggle”? This made my day. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/31 "2005-07-29T17:26:30Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > We’re not as lonely as we think. > > I’m beginning to feel comfortable guessing that we’re a “silent majority.” > > Some folks use a term “South Prk Republicans” or “South Park Conservatives” Good Description. Does it including liking Penn & Tellers Bullshit even if you don’t always agree and yet at same time loving the Daily Show. I like South Park because it blasts everything especially the overdose of PCism. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/32 "2005-07-29T17:31:16Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > I believe the correct phrase was “global stuggle against violent extremism”, or [GSAVE](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/26/politics/26strategy.html?hp&ex=1122436800&en=84d917f2326e4105&ei=5094&partner=homepage). Ah, so. I guess they stopped short of "global waging struggle against violent extremism (US), which would have been “GW-SAVE (US)”. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/33 "2005-07-29T17:45:16Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Some of those guys aren’t getting out of that prison alive, and rightly so. If evidence exists, try them, if it doesn’t let them fucking go. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out gitmo is a PR nightmare and working against us in this fight. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/34 "2005-07-29T18:13:56Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Why don’t you explain how the Roosevelt Administration erred when they set the precedent to deal with all of this that we’re using now. > > I refer again to the case of Herbert Haupt, Edward Kerling, Herman Neubauer, Richard Quirin and Werner Thiel, who were tried as enemy combatants by a military commission appointed on July 8, 1942 and then executed one month later at the District of Columbia Jail. > > The legality of this process was upheld at the time by the landmark case _ex parte Quirin_, and reaffirmed some weeks ago. Happily. Not only did Roosevelt err in Japanese internment camps (unless saying, “it was WW-II, everything America did was great!” is now your debate strategy), this was another mistake in the efforts to wage WW-II. Basically, it was thrown off to the public as the FBI successfully interupting the German infiltration plans, but in reality, the individuals captured and executed virtually turned themselves in and weren’t going to be successfully pursuing any sabotage anyway. This is a _perfect_ example of why due process shouldn’t be suspended for convenience in “war.” Listen all about it here: [www.thislife.org](http://www.thislife.org) Go to the 3/12/03 show entitled, “The Facts Don’t Matter.” The relevant section takes around 36 minutes and is well worth the time. It requires some sort of Real compatible player. Anyway, back to **Chefguy’s** dumbass OP. This is a weak rant inspired by an even weaker episode of the Daily Show. I watched it last night, and although I usually enjoy the show, it immediately struck me that there wasn’t much news to make fun of that day. Basically, this “news item” started out with a clip from February of 2005. Then it goes on to prove the administration had a stead-fast policy of referring to, “the war on terror,” by providing six examples of officials using the phrase, and then goes to some random clip of how they are now “combining the two” that actually comes from September 2004. So, the damnable things that the administration has actually done is: 1. Use the phrased, “War on Terror” more than six times 2. Used the phrase, “Struggle against extremism” The Daily Show even went off on a really stupid tangent of some general dismissing the army as being the automatic solution for terrorism. Well, duh, that’s what 95% of this Board has been arguing for the past two years, and yet the Daily Show plays it off as some sort of faux-paux of denigrating the work of soldiers in Iraq. Equally as idiotic as some beer-guzzling redneck demanding to know, “why do Liberals hate America?” And this is pit-worthy, why, exactly? A struggle against terrorism is a more accurate phrase than war. We’re not engaged in armed combat with a foreign state, and an army isn’t the sollution. You people should be happy. Yet all this shows is that some stupid liberals will find fault with the Bush Administration no matter what is does and that they’ll sound like stupid, shrill hacks for it as well. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/35 "2005-07-29T18:27:53Z")
What **threemae** said. ( **Shodan, too, for that matter**.) There’s nothing to see here. Many people will blast the Bush admin no matter what it does. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/36 "2005-07-29T18:43:11Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Why don’t you explain how the Roosevelt Administration erred when they set the precedent to deal with all of this that we’re using now. > > I refer again to the case of Herbert Haupt, Edward Kerling, Herman Neubauer, Richard Quirin and Werner Thiel, who were tried as enemy combatants by a military commission appointed on July 8, 1942 and then executed one month later at the District of Columbia Jail. > > The legality of this process was upheld at the time by the landmark case _ex parte Quirin_, and reaffirmed some weeks ago. Remind me again, how many Guantanimo detainees have tried by a military commission? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/37 "2005-07-29T18:45:39Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > What **threemae** said. ( **Shodan, too, for that matter**.) There’s nothing to see here. Many people will blast the Bush admin no matter what it does. Then you recognize how predictably unsavory the Bush administration has become? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/38 "2005-07-29T18:51:50Z")
Is it too late to make a Mein Kampf joke? Oh, it is. ☹ Silly geese, don’t you know that wars can have negative connotations while struggles are noble, especially if they fail? ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/39 "2005-07-29T19:10:10Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Then you recognize how predictably unsavory the Bush administration has become? Oh, absolutely. That doesn’t excuse intellectual laziness or crap OP’s such as this. Remember, he got elected for a second go-round, so a majority of this nation obviously feels as if Bush makes a good president. They’re asking, “What’s wrong with Bush?” Responding, “Bush is a fucking moron, QED, now what’s for lunch?” doesn’t cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738/40 "2005-07-29T19:10:44Z")
> [@Mycroft Holmes](#): > > That almost made spew white wine on my monitor (it’s Friday afternoon here at work, and we’re allowed wine and/or beer after 4:30). Tulips, canals, hot Dutch women, a royal family named Orange, clogs… Screw you guys, I’m moving to the Netherlands! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/unwinnable-struggle-replaces-the-war/314738.md?page=3)