# Update on Progress in Iraq and The War On Terror **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2006, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742 "2006-04-29T15:49:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2006, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/1 "2006-04-29T15:49:11Z")
The stories from this morning’s _Los Angeles Times._[Ralph M. Parsons Co. messes up on Iraq construction projects.](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-parsons29apr29,0,2341239.story?coll=la-home-headlines) According to the story, Parsons has spend millions while completing less than a fifth of their contract projects. In addition, the Army Corps of Engineers which is supposed to monitor Parsons’ performance has done a bad job. Parsons is one the the largest US civil engineering companies. They have a large amount of technical competence. One reason for their failure might well be that the financial managers who now largely run large companies won’t let them do a good job because profits might not be as large as they could be. There is little doubt that doing construction in Iraq is difficult, especially in Baghdad and the surrounding area. However, I don’t see how that can be an excuse for such large scale failure if, as the Administration claims, most of Iraq is relatively calm except for the insurgents in the “Sunni triangle.” I guess the question for debate might be, should we expect that US corporations act like good citizens and work hard to advance the national welfare even in the absence of a policing force watching their every move? Or is that just a naive acceptance of the free enterprisers claim that in order to be successful you have to satify the customer? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/2 "2006-04-29T16:29:49Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > I guess the question for debate might be, should we expect that US corporations act like good citizens and work hard to advance the national welfare even in the absence of a policing force watching their every move? I think we should expect US corporations to act like sociopaths who will work hard only to advance their short-term profits. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/3 "2006-04-29T17:30:39Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I think we should expect US corporations to act like sociopaths who will work hard only to advance their short-term profits. You are on the mark. So should we continue to grant corporations the same full immunities and priviledges that are granted actual persons? Do we treat human sociopaths as valued members of the community? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/4 "2006-04-29T17:53:08Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > There is little doubt that doing construction in Iraq is difficult, especially in Baghdad and the surrounding area. However, I don’t see how that can be an excuse for such large scale failure if, as the Administration claims, most of Iraq is relatively calm except for the insurgents in the “Sunni triangle.” Can we have a cite for this alleged claim by the administration? And what does “relatively calm” mean, anyway? Calm relative to Bagdad? That doesn’t mean much. I don’t think the administration is recommending any parts of Iraq as an indeal vacation destination yet. > [@](#): > > I guess the question for debate might be, should we expect that US corporations act like good citizens and work hard to advance the national welfare even in the absence of a policing force watching their every move? Every large project involves audits, and no corporation or individual can just be trusted to do put the “national welfare”, or any other welfare, of its or his own personal gain. Would you hire someone to build a house for you, pay them for it, and never inspect the building site? > [@](#): > > Or is that just a naive acceptance of the free enterprisers claim that in order to be successful you have to satify the customer? Is this an example of free enterprise? It seems to me that the government is often wasteful and sloppy when spending money. At any rate, I don’t quite understand what you’re trying to get at. Because you’ve found one unsatisfied customer, do you think you’ve suddenly discovered a flaw in the free enterprise system? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/5 "2006-04-29T18:21:54Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Can we have a cite for this alleged claim by the administration? And what does “relatively calm” mean, anyway? Calm relative to Bagdad? That doesn’t mean much. I don’t think the administration is recommending any parts of Iraq as an indeal vacation destination yet. Well, I don’t have a specific cite at the moment. However I don’t see how anyone can deny that GW and Rummy have reiterated that progess is being made all over Iraq but is unreported by “the media” because the news reporters never get out of Baghdad and surroundings which is where most of the violence takes place. > [@](#): > > Every large project involves audits, and no corporation or individual can just be trusted to do put the “national welfare”, or any other welfare, of its or his own personal gain. Would you hire someone to build a house for you, pay them for it, and never inspect the building site? No one is claiming that contracts are performed without inspections. However, In view of the importance of the rebuilding Iraq I expect companies that enjoy the benefits of US citizenship to self-police a little better without being examined at every instant. In our military operations do we expect the platoon commander to do a good job on an operation only if the Battalion Commander’s inspectors are always looking over his or her shoulder? John, are you really convinced that the only way that anyone can be expected to do a decent job is to have a policeman standing by at all times? > [@](#): > > Is this an example of free enterprise? It seems to me that the government is often wasteful and sloppy when spending money. At any rate, I don’t quite understand what you’re trying to get at. Because you’ve found one unsatisfied customer, do you think you’ve suddenly discovered a flaw in the free enterprise system? What I’m getting at is that it seems to me that a US company should do all it can do to make sure that it does its best at such a vital job as trying to rebuild Iraq in order to make a few friends here and there. I simply will not accept the excuse that “the government is often wasteful and sloppy.” [Ralph M. Parsons](http://www.parsons.com/about/default.asp) is the expert in this case, having done worldwide construction projects of all sizes. They shouldn’t need an Army Corps of Engineers inspector to keep them on the straight and narrow. As to their financial wellbeing, they had every opportunity to make any bid they wanted on the contract in order to safeguard their finances. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2006, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/6 "2006-04-29T18:33:05Z")
More to the point. I expect corporations, as I expect all others, to deal in good faith and not to shave bids to the point where they can’t make money in order to win the contract and then do substandard work in the performance in order to show a profit on the job. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/7 "2006-04-29T19:46:41Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Well, I don’t have a specific cite at the moment. However I don’t see how anyone can deny that GW and Rummy have reiterated that progess is being made all over Iraq but is unreported by “the media” because the news reporters never get out of Baghdad and surroundings which is where most of the violence takes place. Well, there is some truth in that. But I don’t think the administration has ever implied, as you seem to have done in your OP, that an American company can operate anywhere in Iraq without substatial security concerns. > [@](#): > > No one is claiming that contracts are performed without inspections. However, In view of the importance of the rebuilding Iraq I expect companies that enjoy the benefits of US citizenship to self-police a little better without being examined at every instant. > > In our military operations do we expect the platoon commander to do a good job on an operation only if the Battalion Commander’s inspectors are always looking over his or her shoulder? > > John, are you really convinced that the only way that anyone can be expected to do a decent job is to have a policeman standing by at all times? Are you saying that you’re shocked, SHOCKED, that some shenanigans might be going on in government contracts? Of course I don’t like it, and if the company did something illegal they should be prosecuted. I just don’t understand what general point you’re trying to make based on this one incident. > [@](#): > > What I’m getting at is that it seems to me that a US company should do all it can do to make sure that it does its best at such a vital job as trying to rebuild Iraq in order to make a few friends here and there. Are you saying that a company has more of a responsibility not to screw up in Iraq than it would if it were doing a project in the US? I’m not sure I can agree with you on that, if that is what you are saying. But keep in mind that we haven’t heard their side of the story. Is it possible that they think the military reneged on security promises? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/8 "2006-04-29T19:58:56Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Are you saying that you’re shocked, SHOCKED, that some shenanigans might be going on in government contracts? Of course I don’t like it, and if the company did something illegal they should be prosecuted. I just don’t understand what general point you’re trying to make based on this one incident. Well, you don’t sound like you are all that concerned about a failure on what was one of our main projects, rebuilding Iraq’s infrastructure. I’ll confess I’m puzzed by your contined excuses for failure to perform on the part of the Administration and all of its associates. You seem to be quite solicitous of Parson’s financial welfare even though they are big boys who presumeably are quite capable of taking care of themselves. > [@](#): > > But keep in mind that we haven’t heard their side of the story. Is it possible that they think the military reneged on security promises? So instead of going to the contracting officer and laying out their case for the military having not provided adequate security they are justified in unilaterally deciding they can make up for it by not performing? What the hell are you saying here? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2006, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/9 "2006-04-29T20:09:41Z")
And what do you mean, “this one incident.” This is only one of a continued series of fuck-up, starting with believing Chalabi, continuing through Powell’s speech to the UN, the uranium in Niger, the “centrfuge parts”, and on and on. I’m fed up with excuses for colossal blundering that cost lives and billions of dollars with little prospect of an outcome that serves the national welfare. I believe that such continued miscalculations, if they are that, on the part of GW and all of his governmental and business cronies borders on criminal misconduct. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2006, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/10 "2006-04-29T20:30:16Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > And what do you mean, “this one incident.” This is only one of a continued series of fuck-up, starting with believing Chalabi, continuing through Powell’s speech to the UN, the uranium in Niger, the “centrfuge parts”, and on and on. I thought this thread was about corporate responsibility. Did you want to debate the justification for the Iraq war again? If so, I’ll take a pass on that. **David** , I think you know that I agree with you that the Iraq war was a collasol fuck-up from day one. I hought I was getting close to understanding your debate topic in my last post (that a company has more responsibility not to screw up in Iraq than in the US), but frankly it seems like you just want to rant against Bush and the war. I’ll drop out of this thread for awhile and rejoin it later if it gets back on track. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2006, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/11 "2006-04-29T20:45:09Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I thought this thread was about corporate responsibility. Did you want to debate the justification for the Iraq war again? If so, I’ll take a pass on that. It is partly. It’s also about the bunch of bullshit that we get about how much progress is being made in Iraq except for the resistance in the Sunni Triangle - and that, of course is not our fault. And I don’t think that airy dismissals of corporate responsibility as citizens to do their best to perform properly on grounds that they are in business to make a profit are either useful or valid. That’s just trite. Of course they are and everyone knows that. However if conditions are such that they can’t make a profit because those conditions were misrepresented then their out is not to merely slough off. Rather it is to bring those conditions as high up in the government as is necessary in order to get relief. Endless incompetence, dodging responsibility, half-truths and no-truths are beginning to get old as hell. Huge corporations were given billions in no-bid contracts to do the vital job, you might say the real job, of restoring Iraq to better than its condition under Sadaam. They seem to be not performing and yet we get this continual “Things in Iraq are a lot better than the media reports make them out to be.” And most of the examples given to demostrate that are of the military going out of its way, and its job, to try to make things easier for the average Iraqi. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/12 "2006-04-29T21:04:10Z")
The article “Money for Nothing” by a former CIA officer goes into detail and includes information about contracts gone wrong. Some of it is jaw-dropping. It is concise and from a conservative source. There are many other sources to back it up. I hope that you will take a moment to consider the implications. [The American Conservative Magazine](http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_10_24/cover.html) > [@](#): > > The 15-month proconsulship of the CPA disbursed nearly $20 billion, two-thirds of it in cash, most of which came from the Development Fund for Iraq that had replaced the UN Oil for Food Program and from frozen and seized Iraqi assets. Most of the money was flown into Iraq on C-130s in huge plastic shrink-wrapped pallets holding 40 “cashpaks,” each cashpak having $1.6 million in $100 bills. Twelve billion dollars moved that way between May 2003 and June 2004, drawn from accounts administered by the New York Federal Reserve Bank. The $100 bills weighed an estimated 363 tons. > > Once in Iraq, there was virtually no accountability over how the money was spent… > > \ > > …The contracts were especially attractive because no work or results were necessarily expected in return. It became popular to cancel contracts without penalty, claiming that security costs were making it too difficult to do the work. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/13 "2006-04-29T22:30:07Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I think we should expect US corporations to act like sociopaths who will work hard only to advance their short-term profits. But… but… but the free market makes _everything_ better! You’d know this if you ever listen to Fox News and Bill O’Reilly. What are you, some sort of _communist?_ :eek: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/14 "2006-05-03T15:45:26Z")
Related threads: "Coalition Provisional Authority can’t account for $8.8 billion in Iraqi oil revenue " – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=306538](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=306538) “Iraq contractor Custer Battles sued for fraud. Defense: CPA never existed!” – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=304863](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=304863) ““Redneck Mafia” in Iraq?” – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=309594](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=309594) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/15 "2006-05-03T15:47:26Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Do we treat human sociopaths as valued members of the community? Sometimes. Sometimes we even elect them to public office. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/16 "2006-05-08T03:45:15Z")
blog"a family in baghdad" another Baghdad Burning.Writen by people in Iraq.They have very little electricity,bad water and oddly no gas.Stories of doors kucked down in the night.,frequently getting stopped and searched.If winnung hearts and minds is part of our plan ,it is failing miserably. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/17 "2006-05-08T21:01:51Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > But… but… but the free market makes _everything_ better! You’d know this if you ever listen to Fox News and Bill O’Reilly. What are you, some sort of _communist?_ :eek: Of course “no bid” contracts aren’t the best examples of a free market. The conditions required for a really free market are hard to get. With huge corporations in the picture I think they will become so rare as to be non existent. Business wants an exclusive franchise in somethig that is habit forming, not a free and open competition. ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/18 "2006-05-09T00:04:21Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > The article “Money for Nothing” by a former CIA officer goes into detail and includes information about contracts gone wrong. Some of it is jaw-dropping. It is concise and from a conservative source. There are many other sources to back it up. I hope that you will take a moment to consider the implications. > > [The American Conservative Magazine](http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_10_24/cover.html) :eek: I’ve heard a lot of wild tales in my life, but this exceds everything … \*In one notorious incident in April 2004, $1.5 billion in cash that had just been delivered by three Blackhawk helicopters was handed over to a courier in Erbil, in the Kurdish region, never to be seen again. Afterwards, no one was able to recall the courier’s name or provide a good description of him … Paul Bremer, meanwhile, had a slush fund in cash of more than $600 million in his office for which there was no paperwork. One U.S. contractor received $2 million in a duffel bag … Today, no one can account for billions of those dollars or even suggest how the money was spent. And as the CPA no longer exists, there is also little interest in re-examining its transparency or accountability…\* If this is true this was one wild party I missed out on :mad: ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2006, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-progress-in-iraq-and-the-war-on-terror/354742/19 "2006-05-09T04:58:18Z")
We have no bid contracts for companies like Halliburton.They were ficilitated by Bremers 100 points. pt 12 elimination of taxes and tariffs on imports 17.foreign contractors immune to Iraqi laws 39. privatization of 200 state owned businesses 41 corp.tax rate dropped from 40 to 15% We had no iknterest in providing services.Contractors are making a fortune and they have the government set up for them.