# Update on those British sailors the Iranians grabbed : Iranians were in the right **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2008, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978 "2008-04-19T05:00:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/1 "2008-04-19T05:00:25Z")
[Link](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3761058.ece) > [@](#): > > Fifteen British sailors and Marines were seized by Iran in internationally disputed waters and not in Iraq’s maritime territory as Parliament was told, according to new official documents released to The Times. > > The Britons were seized because the US-led coalition designated a sea boundary for Iran’s territorial waters **without telling the Iranians where it was** , internal Ministry of Defence briefing papers reveal. > > \< snip \> > > — The Iranian Revolutionary Guards’ coastal protection vessels were crossing this invisible line at a rate of three times a week; It was the British who apparently raised their weapons first before the Iranian gunboats came alongside; Bolding mine. Given that nobody got killed, I’m more amused than anything. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/2 "2008-04-19T05:19:46Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] [Link](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article3761058.ece) Bolding mine. Given that nobody got killed, I’m more amused than anything. [/QUOTE] Well that was confirmed then, I remember when that took place I pointed out that the map that was showed to the public to convince the British people that the ship was in international or Iraqi waters was unreliable, the lines showed a peculiar turn of the invisible line giving more “territory” to Iraq than Iran. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8417921&postcount=8](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8417921&postcount=8) [http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/murray290307.html](http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/murray290307.html) > [@](#): > > But there are two colossal problems. > > A) The Iran/Iraq maritime boundary shown on the British government map does not exist. It has been drawn up by the British Government. Only Iraq and Iran can agree their bilateral boundary, and they \*\*never have done this in the Gulf, \*\*only inside the Shatt because there it is the land border too. This published boundary is a fake with no legal force. > > B) Accepting the British coordinates for the position of both HMS Cornwall and the incident, both were closer to Iranian land than Iraqi land. Go on, print out the map and measure it. Which underlines the point that the British produced border is not a reliable one. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/3 "2008-04-25T18:23:11Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Iranians were in the right [/QUOTE] How did I know you would say this? Even if we stipulate that the British weren’t they should have been, the Iranians then held the sailors for days and compelled them to confess on TV. And of course, news comes today that an American ship fired warning shots yet again at Iranian gunboats - this after they ignored radio and ship’s horn signals. After similar incidents in the past, the only conclusion that makes sense is a systematic feeling out of our ships’ defense doctrine and capability. But of course, this doesn’t matter. Iran is right, the West is wrong in the simplistic world of our OP. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/4 "2008-04-25T18:28:48Z")
Moved to GD. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/5 "2008-04-25T18:42:28Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] How did I know you would say this? Even if we stipulate that the British weren’t they should have been, the Iranians then held the sailors for days and compelled them to confess on TV. [/QUOTE] Hello and welcome to “shades of gray” world, where things are not black and white. How about - The British were wrong about international boundries and initial provocation, while IN ADDITION, the Iranians were wrong in how they handled the subsequent events. Ya know, not EVERY Der Trihs post deserves a knee jerk response. Just sayin’ ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/6 "2008-04-25T18:42:55Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] How did I know you would say this? Even if we stipulate that the British weren’t they should have been, the Iranians then held the sailors for days and compelled them to confess on TV. And of course, news comes today that an American ship fired warning shots yet again at Iranian gunboats - this after they ignored radio and ship’s horn signals. After similar incidents in the past, the only conclusion that makes sense is a systematic feeling out of our ships’ defense doctrine and capability. But of course, this doesn’t matter. Iran is right, the West is wrong in the simplistic world of our OP. [/QUOTE] Well, I dunno. I’m not sure it’s outrageous behaviour by the Iranians. Now if the Canadians were testing out the capabilities of the USA, or the Danish were testing out the capabilities of the UK, maybe that would be different. But I do think the Iranians can legitimately ask what we’re doing anywhere near their territory or waters. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/7 "2008-04-25T18:55:19Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] the Iranians then held the sailors for days and compelled them to confess on TV. [/QUOTE] Perhaps this might be better phrased as; “compelled them to tell the truth on TV.” ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/8 "2008-04-25T19:05:46Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Even if we stipulate that the British weren’t they should have been, the Iranians then held the sailors for days and compelled them to confess on TV. [/QUOTE] Naturally, as we have learned from the American example, the correct way to handle an incident like this is to disappear the offenders into an offshore gulag until the end of time. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/9 "2008-04-25T19:08:16Z")
[QUOTE=Euphonious Polemic] Perhaps this might be better phrased as; “compelled them to tell the truth on TV.” [/QUOTE] To be fair, compelling them to say anything at all on TV would seem to be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/10 "2008-04-25T19:10:42Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Naturally, as we have learned from the American example, the correct way to handle an incident like this is to disappear the offenders into an offshore gulag until the end of time. [/QUOTE] Yes; America isn’t exactly in a position to pretend moral superiority over prisoner treatment. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/11 "2008-04-25T19:14:35Z")
Hrm, no tu quoque “well America does thus and such” until post eight. Progress is being made. Speaking of progress, how was Iran “in the right” if they seized the sailors in “disputed waters” past a border that’s been uncertain since 1639, held them for several days and violated the GC by parading them on television? Pay particular attention to that last bit, defenders of international law. Iran deliberately violated the GC on the treatment of prisoners of war. Are you really ready to start down the road of justifying GC violations? Really? [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Yes; America isn’t exactly in a position to pretend moral superiority over prisoner treatment. [/QUOTE] Funny… I thought this was about who was in the right, not who was more moral than anybody else. Did I miss something? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/12 "2008-04-25T19:17:07Z")
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead] But I do think the Iranians can legitimately ask what we’re doing anywhere near their territory or waters. [/QUOTE] Not really. Freedom of navigation is pretty well established in international law. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/13 "2008-04-25T19:18:20Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Naturally, as we have learned from the American example, the correct way to handle an incident like this is to disappear the offenders into an offshore gulag until the end of time. [/QUOTE] As shameful as I think the Gitmo situation is, even Bush has not done that to uniformed military personnel operating under the direction of a sovereign government. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/14 "2008-04-25T19:29:41Z")
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead] To be fair, compelling them to say anything at all on TV would seem to be a problem. [/QUOTE] True enough.. Neither black nor white but shades of gray… Horrors, the complexity! [QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Not really. Freedom of navigation is pretty well established in international law. [/QUOTE] [Except if you’re in a boat that looks Iranian](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352579,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/15 "2008-04-25T19:34:48Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Hrm, no tu quoque “well America does thus and such” until post eight. Progress is being made. [/QUOTE] Actually, the first tu quoque was in post #3 “well the Iranians then did such and so”. Just thought you should keep the score properly updated. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/16 "2008-04-25T19:35:04Z")
Of course they were in Iranian waters - else why would they have permitted themselves to be taken without a fight? If they had truly believed they were in international waters, they would have called the Iranians’ bluff. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/17 "2008-04-25T19:39:58Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] Of course they were in Iranian waters - else why would they have permitted themselves to be taken without a fight? If they had truly believed they were in international waters, they would have called the Iranians’ bluff. [/QUOTE] Even if they were outnumbered and outgunned? There were only 14 British sailors on board. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/18 "2008-04-25T19:42:02Z")
[QUOTE=Euphonious Polemic] Actually, the first tu quoque was in post #3 “well the Iranians then did such and so”. [/QUOTE] That wasn’t a tu quoque - it was more of the story. When the OP states that the Iranians were right, the fact that they were wrong becomes important. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/19 "2008-04-25T19:55:12Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] That wasn’t a tu quoque - it was more of the story. When the OP states that the Iranians were right, the fact that they were wrong becomes important. [/QUOTE] I must disagree. The OP was about the fact that the British were wrong (ie they were in fact in disputed waters) Your retort was along the lines of “well ya, but the Iranians were also wrong in how they treated the sailors afterward.” The location of the British ship and the subsequent treatment of the sailors are independent events in this context. YMMV (and probably does) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/20 "2008-04-25T20:19:00Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] But of course, this doesn’t matter. Iran is right, the West is wrong in the simplistic world of our OP. [/QUOTE] It is funny that you don’t seem to realize that your world view is as simplistic as the one you’re attributing to Der. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978.md?page=2)