# Update on those British sailors the Iranians grabbed : Iranians were in the right **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2008, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978 "2008-04-19T05:00:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/21 "2008-04-25T20:21:10Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] Of course they were in Iranian waters - else why would they have permitted themselves to be taken without a fight? If they had truly believed they were in international waters, they would have called the Iranians’ bluff. [/QUOTE] How do you know it was a bluff ? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/22 "2008-04-25T20:24:38Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] How do you know it was a bluff ? [/QUOTE] Just **capturing** the British sailors was audacious enough; do you think they really would have been so reckless as to sink them? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/23 "2008-04-25T20:28:51Z")
[QUOTE=Lobohan] It is funny that you don’t seem to realize that your world view is as simplistic as the one you’re attributing to Der. [/QUOTE] Oh, I’d be more than happy to discuss coups in the 1950s and SAVAK and the relative power of the Qods force vice the traditional Iranian military and myriad other matters - but that seemed like a bit much to get into at the moment. Just pointing out that the OP wasn’t posting the whole story was enough at that particular time. Now, if you’d like to discuss these things, I’m sure ready. But a general thread about our relations with Iran might serve better than this one devoted to just this incident. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/24 "2008-04-25T20:31:36Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Just **capturing** the British sailors was audacious enough; do you think they really would have been so reckless as to sink them? [/QUOTE] Of course! The Iranians [Are Evil!](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/01/20020129-11.html) Isn’t the world of black and white so much simpler! ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/25 "2008-04-25T20:31:56Z")
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead] To be fair, compelling them to say anything at all on TV would seem to be a problem. [/QUOTE] Who do they think they are, FOX News? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/26 "2008-04-25T20:33:40Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Even if they were outnumbered and outgunned? There were only 14 British sailors on board. [/QUOTE] First of all, being outgunned only matters if the other side starts shooting. Would the Iranins have risked an actual gunfight with the British navy? I doubt it. Second of all, I asume the 14 sailors had a radio. All they had to do was refuse to surrender for 15 minutes, and reinforcements would have arrived. The fat that they \*didn’t \* wait for reinforcements is pretty damning in my eyes. One thing I never understood about the event - who, exactly, gave the order to surrender? Was it the commander at the scene, or did they receive instructions from above? And if so, who was it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/27 "2008-04-25T20:38:27Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] One thing I never understood about the event - who, exactly, gave the order to surrender? Was it the commander at the scene, or did they receive instructions from above? And if so, who was it? [/QUOTE] I shouldn’t wonder if their captain had standing orders to surrender in such a situation rather than risk a violent incident. In fact, it would be gross negligence on the part of the brass if such a policy were not firmly in place. Bear in mind that, looking back, everything turned out much better for all concerned than it possibly could have if they had fought, or called for reinforcements. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/28 "2008-04-25T20:39:49Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Just **capturing** the British sailors was audacious enough; do you think they really would have been so reckless as to sink them? [/QUOTE] Certainly. First, I doubt that Britain would start a war over a few sailors killed, any more than they did over some captured. Second, there are likely factions that would like a little war with Britain, to shore up support at home. And third, if they were unwilling to shoot, they’d be giving up all pretense of authority. And fourth, I wouldn’t care to bet my life on guessing the geopolitical opinions of strangers with guns pointed at me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/29 "2008-04-25T20:45:17Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] First of all, being outgunned only matters if the other side starts shooting. Would the Iranins have risked an actual gunfight with the British navy? I doubt it. [/quote] You suggested that the British should start shooting, so yeah, it does matter. > [@](#): > > Second of all, I asume the 14 sailors had a radio. All they had to do was refuse to surrender for 15 minutes, and reinforcements would have arrived. The fat that they \*didn’t \* wait for reinforcements is pretty damning in my eyes. Read the linked article. They did call for help: > [@](#): > > The cornered British, surrounded by heavily armed Iranians, made a hopeless last-minute radio plea for a helicopter to come back and provide air cover. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/30 "2008-04-25T20:46:05Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I shouldn’t wonder if their captain had standing orders to surrender in such a situation rather than risk a violent incident. In fact, it would be gross negligence on the part of the brass if such a policy were not firmly in place. . [/QUOTE] I’m sorry, but “violent incidents” are what militaries _do_. If they weren’t prepared to fight then why did they even bother to show up? I don’t think you realize the damage this little incident did to the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/31 "2008-04-25T20:46:08Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] But a general thread about our relations with Iran might serve better than this one devoted to just this incident. [/QUOTE] I commend you, and look forward to a fulsome and complex debate on the history of Iranian/US relations the next time Iran does something egregiously stupid. (It’s probably just a matter of time) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/32 "2008-04-25T20:57:48Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] You suggested that the British should start shooting, so yeah, it does matter. [/quote] No, I suggested that they should have waited to see if the Iranians fired the first shot. But no shots were fired. [QUOTE=John Mace] Read the linked article. They did call for help: [/QUOTE] Then why didn’t they wait for the helicopter before laying down their arms? Again - were they ordered to surrender, or did they do it independently? This is the key question of the entire debacle, and I still haven’t seen a satsfactory answer. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/33 "2008-04-25T21:35:01Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Oh, I’d be more than happy to discuss coups in the 1950s and SAVAK and the relative power of the Qods force vice the traditional Iranian military and myriad other matters - but that seemed like a bit much to get into at the moment. Just pointing out that the OP wasn’t posting the whole story was enough at that particular time. Now, if you’d like to discuss these things, I’m sure ready. But a general thread about our relations with Iran might serve better than this one devoted to just this incident. [/QUOTE] Don’t let me stop you from starting one. If I feel you post something stupid I’ll be sure to speak up. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/34 "2008-04-25T21:47:31Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] I’m sorry, but “violent incidents” are what militaries _do_. If they weren’t prepared to fight then why did they even bother to show up? [/quote] They weren’t sent there to fight the **Iranians,** with whom both the U.S. and UK have maintained an uneasy peace up to now, which fighting at that juncture might have shattered. [QUOTE=Alessan] I don’t think you realize the damage this little incident did to the UK. [/QUOTE] Indeed I do not. Beyond a small measure of humiliation, what exactly is the nature of this “damage”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/35 "2008-04-25T22:09:27Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] Again - were they ordered to surrender, or did they do it independently? This is the key question of the entire debacle, and I still haven’t seen a satsfactory answer. [/QUOTE] You never will, if it is the Royal Navy’s policy not to release that information. But they did the right thing – does it matter why? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/36 "2008-04-25T22:58:32Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] No, I suggested that they should have waited to see if the Iranians fired the first shot. But no shots were fired. [/quote] And unless they were willing to fire, surrendering to the larger force was probably the best thing to do. > [@](#): > > Then why didn’t they wait for the helicopter before laying down their arms? Who said they ever picked up their arms? > [@](#): > > Again - were they ordered to surrender, or did they do it independently? This is the key question of the entire debacle, and I still haven’t seen a satsfactory answer. Why is it a key question since you claim to already know that they were in the wrong simply because they surrendered? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/37 "2008-04-25T23:19:31Z")
[QUOTE=Euphonious Polemic] I . . . look forward to a **fulsome**. . . debate . . . . [/QUOTE] Please take a moment to look up the bolded word before you employ it again. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/38 "2008-04-25T23:30:55Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Please take a moment to look up the bolded word before you employ it again. Thank you. [/QUOTE] Seeing as how \*\*EP \*\*is a “guest”, he or she might not be able to tell whether you are moderating or not. I wasn’t exactly sure at first. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/39 "2008-04-25T23:31:24Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Please take a moment to look up the bolded word before you employ it again. Thank you. [/QUOTE] Err… oops. I was going for [meaning simply “abundant,” without any implication of excess or insincerity.](http://thefreedictionary.com/fulsome) I do note that “This usage is etymologically justified but may invite misunderstandings in contexts in which a deprecatory interpretation could be made.” In my case, no offense intended. \ ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978/40 "2008-04-25T23:49:18Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Not really. Freedom of navigation is pretty well established in international law. [/QUOTE] I know, I even read the SD column on the subject. But I do think the Iranians have legitimate grounds to fear that US military vessels near their shores might represent some sort of threat. Same with British vessels, of course. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-on-those-british-sailors-the-iranians-grabbed-iranians-were-in-the-right/445978.md?page=3)