# Update to Idiot Legal Arguments? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 27, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515 "2010-10-27T13:34:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/1 "2010-10-27T13:34:30Z")
Question for US lawyers. I have the hilarious task of taking on a loon in our Court of Appeal in a couple of weeks. He has taken to adopting the affectations of the freeman movement, including spelling his name with colons in the middle, insisting that contract law determines his obligations with respect to criminal law and he can opt out of the criminal law if he chooses, and so on. Of course his arguments on these point are doomed to fail under our law as well. But I do like to read around the subject, and was hoping that there was a more up-to-date version of the impressive work done by Sussman at [Idiot Legal Arguments](http://www.adl.org/mwd/suss1.asp). Regrettably, his work is only up to date to 1999. Is there any similar resource out there founded in US jurisprudence that is similar to Sussman’s but current? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/2 "2010-10-27T14:58:44Z")
The wonderful [Tax Protesters FAQ](http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html) covers some of the same ground, including the colon nonsense: > [@](#): > > Putting a comma or colon between your first and last names shows that you are a freeman not subject to governmental authority. > > Some of the stranger fringe elements of the tax protest movement actually believe that their legal status changes in some way if they insert additional punctuation within their names. > > The most common action is to put a comma between the first and last names, so that “John Smith” becomes “John, Smith.” This kind of nonsense is usually just ignored. > > “Plaintiffs have inserted commas between their first and last names. See Complaint. As this punctuation serves no purpose other than obfuscation or evasion to avoid responsibility, standard punctuation is used herein to identify the three named Plaintiffs …” > Glen D. Bell et al. v. United States, 2002 TNT 105-13, No. CIV F 02-5142, Note 1 (U.S.D.C. E.D.Cal. 4/23/2002) (action to discharge federal tax lien). > > However, some cranks have gotten even more creative, inserting hyphens and colons within their names. For example, one Canadian tax protester insists that his name is not “Thomas Joseph Kennedy” but “Thomas-Joseph: Kennedy.” > > As one magistrate judge has remarked, “The use of a hyphen or colon (the punctuation mark) in names is typical of tax protester and militia groups.” Audio Investments v. Robertson, 2002 TNT 68-13, Note 2, No. 8:00-2847-20 (U.S.D.C. S.C. 1/25/2002). However, exactly why they do it remains something of a mystery. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/3 "2010-10-27T15:46:44Z")
Just for fun – here’s a website that purports to give _better_ advice on making idiotic spelling arguments – [Court Cases on Fictitious Names](http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/names.html) ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/4 "2010-10-27T15:54:29Z")
> [@Noel\_Prosequi](#): > > But I do like to read around the subject, and was hoping that there was a more up-to-date version of the impressive work done by Sussman at [Idiot Legal Arguments](http://www.adl.org/mwd/suss1.asp). It’s certainly impressive but it’s a right bugger to read. Perhaps they didn’t have [line breaks](http://www.adl.org/mwd/suss6.asp#disagree) back in 1999. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/5 "2010-10-27T15:59:19Z")
My favourite is on [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/mrsbrown.asp). James Brown’s wife was stopped in Georgia for DWI, speeding and criminal trespass. When the case came to trial her lawyer argued that because Augusta, GA had held a “James Brown Appreciation Day” in which the Funk Godfather had been hailed as the state’s “No 1 Ambassador”, his wife was therefore covered by diplomatic immunity. Obviously didn’t work but you know the lawyer was clutching at straws when he came up with that one! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/6 "2010-10-27T16:06:04Z")
We had one of those guys here on the Dope a long time ago. He was claiming that his selective service card was invalid because his name was spelled in all capitals. And he kept saying “nom de guerre.” Is that one of the shibboleths for these guys? ---
**Author:** ![Lare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Lare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lare)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/7 "2010-10-27T16:26:20Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > My favourite is on [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/mrsbrown.asp). > > James Brown’s wife was stopped in Georgia for DWI, speeding and criminal trespass. > > When the case came to trial her lawyer argued that because Augusta, GA had held a “James Brown Appreciation Day” in which the Funk Godfather had been hailed as the state’s “No 1 Ambassador”, his wife was therefore covered by diplomatic immunity. > > Obviously didn’t work but you know the lawyer was clutching at straws when he came up with that one! IANA-person-in-the-legal-system, but if I were the judge on this case I would reduce the fine just for the creativity. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/8 "2010-10-27T16:27:54Z")
I am very disappointed to learn that the legal system of the _Ning Nang Nong_ is so sensible. If you can’t have silly laws there, where can you? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/9 "2010-10-27T16:48:31Z")
To quote the legal scholar [Shirley Ellis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Name_Game); > [@](#): > > Come on everybody! > I say now let’s play a game > I betcha I can make a rhyme out of anybody’s name > The first letter of the name, I treat it like it wasn’t there > But a B or an F or an M will appear > And then I say bo add a B then I say the name and Bonana fanna and a fo > And then I say the name again with an F very plain > and a fee fy and a mo > And then I say the name again with an M this time > and there isn’t any name that I can’t rhyme ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/10 "2010-10-27T19:13:20Z")
Thank you all. And to **njtt** :- yes, even here, where cows go bong, the trees go ping and the teapots jibberjabber joo, these idiot arguments do not gain traction. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/11 "2010-10-27T19:54:13Z")
I wonder if this sort of thing is related to the idea that computers require unique usernames for identification. So there can be only one JohnSmith, only one John\_Smith, only one JohnSmithLuvs269, and so on. So if the courts have your username as John Smith, you claim no, your username is John:Smith. If a tax document has your username as JOHN SMITH, your username is John Smith. In other words, you get to specify the unique identifier that is your username, and if anyone else uses a different unique identifier, then it obviously isn’t you, and the procedure is a mockery of a sham. Of course, the law doesn’t work that way. Names are not unique identifiers, and misspelling your name on a legal document doesn’t mean the case gets thrown out of court. The funniest part about these guys is the notion that all the laws that the rest of us have to abide by are voluntary, we only have to abide by them because we took some random innocuous action that meant we voluntarily signed away our freedoms. And the cops and lawyers and judges all know that unless you sign away your freedom, they’re powerless. Except why would the cops and lawyers and judges abide by the “real” secret law? After all, most people don’t know about the real law, they think the fascist fake law is the real law. But if people think and act as though the fake law is the real law, then why don’t the cops and lawyers and judges act that way too? I mean, if the real law says that if they get your unique identifier wrong they have to drop the charges, what happens if they just pretend that the real law doesn’t exist? Do they get in trouble? Do they get punished by the Illuminati? It seems that if they applied the real law, that’s when they’d get in trouble with the Illuminati. Ignoring the the real law and railroading an innocent man is what gets you a trophy from the Illuminati. If Saddam Hussein wanted a man taken away in the middle of the night and tortured to death, he just ordered his thugs to do it. He didn’t pass a law making it legal to grab people and torture them to death. Actual jackbooted thugs in fascist police states don’t care that the law says that torture is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![AmunRa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AmunRa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmunRa)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/12 "2010-10-28T05:06:11Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I wonder if this sort of thing is related to the idea that computers require unique usernames for identification. So there can be only one JohnSmith, only one John\_Smith, only one JohnSmithLuvs269, and so on. Even with user names there is wiggle room though. If you try to log in as lemur866 it will work just fine. very few applications use case sensitive user names. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/13 "2010-10-28T07:15:56Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I wonder if this sort of thing is related to the idea that computers require unique usernames for identification. So there can be only one JohnSmith, only one John\_Smith, only one JohnSmithLuvs269, and so on. > > So if the courts have your username as John Smith, you claim no, your username is John:Smith. If a tax document has your username as JOHN SMITH, your username is John Smith. In other words, you get to specify the unique identifier that is your username, and if anyone else uses a different unique identifier, then it obviously isn’t you, and the procedure is a mockery of a sham. [Obligatory, the story of little Bobby Tables](http://xkcd.com/327/). ---
**Author:** ![MeDrewNotYou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@MeDrewNotYou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeDrewNotYou)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/14 "2010-10-28T08:42:20Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > To quote the legal scholar [Shirley Ellis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Name_Game); I remember when I was younger and sitting in the backseat with my sister when the song came on. After a couple of seconds she asked me, “What about Mitch?” Many snickers. Then I respond, “Let’s do Chuck!” My parents quickly changed the station. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/15 "2010-10-29T12:57:35Z")
Our federal tax collection authority, the Internal Revenue Service, has a handy page summarizing their take on these matters [http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159853,00.html](http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159853,00.html) The only thing funny about it is reading the leaden bureaucratic prose trying to talk sense to nutters. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/16 "2010-10-29T19:41:55Z")
One of my favorites quotations for dealing with the Tinfoil-Hat Brigade: “Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest.” _Coleman v. CIR_ (7th Cir. 1986), 791 F.2d 68, 69. Some previous threads that may be of interest: > **[Is US Income Tax Invalid because Ohio wasn't a state?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=490905)** > > This is a reply to the thread Is US Income Tax Invalid because Ohio wasn’t a state when the 16th amendment was ratified? Apart from the Ohio issue. Contrary to IRS opinion and media propaganda, the 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (which... > **[Involuntary servitude arguments for income tax and the draft](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=463426)** > > With reference to Gfactor’s Mailbag-du-Jour, Does the collection of income tax violate the Thirteenth Amendment?, I have always thought that the involuntary servitude argument against income tax was stretching the concept a bit, but the military... > **[Ed Brown Raid - Tax Evasion](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=424623)** > > I don’t know if anybody has been following this story. Ed Brown and his wife, living in NH, have not paid their income tax for some years. They were recently charged for tax evasion. The Browns asked the judge to show them the law stating that they... > **[Ask the girl who deals with tax protesters everyday!](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=425925)** > > I suppose a little background is in order. Our family business is a tax representation firm that operates in two states (CA and NV, if that’s important) and I’ve been in and out of the office since I was able to do nothing more than toddle around.... > **[Refute this endearingly loopy (Canadian) anti-tax argument](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=357200)** > > A fellow who may or may not be called James Clifford Hanna submitted an affidavit to a Yukon court to explain why he has not been paying any taxes recently. It amounts to the argument that the birth certificate issued upon his birth created a legal... > **[Borders/Trim on US flag-Change in Jurisdicition?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=339584)** > > I read a tax-avoidance book many years ago that said that a gold border around a flag is a sign that one is under Navy (?) jusrisdiction, hence, a court with one of these flags is not bound by the US Constitution, and that is why we have so many... ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/17 "2010-10-30T04:54:42Z")
Thanks for those, **EH**. I have actually used that quote in my draft written outline of argument. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/18 "2010-10-30T15:58:06Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And the cops and lawyers and judges all know that unless you sign away your freedom, they’re powerless. > > Except why would the cops and lawyers and judges abide by the “real” secret law? After all, most people don’t know about the real law, they think the fascist fake law is the real law. But if people think and act as though the fake law is the real law, then why don’t the cops and lawyers and judges act that way too? I always thought it’s akin to magical thinking: like when you’re a little kid and you see your mother stick a little card into a machine and take money out, you think that’s all there is to it. They see lawyers and judges using this mystical and hard-to-understand language and thereby effect changes in people’s legal status. So they become convinced the _simple act of brandishing language_ has the power to alter their legal status, and accordingly if they can just figure out the right magic words to say, they can do the same thing that judges and lawyers do, and beat them at their own game. They suppose that the unfairness in society, with certain people acting above the law, must be due to them knowing the right “code” with which to escape their obligations. Besides, people like to feel special. To a certain psychology, it’s completely plausible that _you_ (you clever person you!) have figured out the super secret way not to have to pay taxes that is guaranteed to work but that nobody has ever tried before (those pathetic sheeple!) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/update-to-idiot-legal-arguments/558515/19 "2010-10-31T03:04:58Z")
> [@Noel\_Prosequi](#): > > Thanks for those, **EH**. I have actually used that quote in my draft written outline of argument. Excellent. I strongly hope you’ll leave it in (and send me a copy when it’s done)!