# Updike and New Iskander, it's a twofer tuesday! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097 "2005-11-08T20:42:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/221 "2005-11-18T02:47:45Z")
[I want to say I think it’s a lie to say that the president lied to the American people.](http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/face_111305.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/222 "2005-11-18T02:54:02Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Well, because of Bush’s cause, thousands of people died. It can be also easily inferred that because of **FinnAgain** exagerations, few US soldiers might have already died. POTUS powers are greater, so are the consequences of POTUS actions: simply a difference of scale, that’s all. That’s why it becomes of paramount importance to look at the Causes. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/223 "2005-11-18T03:08:36Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > It can be also easily inferred that because of **FinnAgain** exagerations, few US soldiers might have already died. First, they’re not exagerations. The military itself has charged their own with 18 cases of homicide and are investigating another 8 as criminal homicides. That doesn’t include all the cases of people with heart problems who may very well have been subjected to our admitted policies of exercising-till-they-drop. Second, US soldiers would have died because someone read my posts on a message board? I didn’t know I’m that powerful. Neat. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/224 "2005-11-18T03:12:35Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > First, they’re not exagerations. The military itself has charged their own with 18 cases of homicide and are investigating another 8 as criminal homicides. That doesn’t include all the cases of people with heart problems who may very well have been subjected to our admitted policies of exercising-till-they-drop. Why does America hate America? > [@](#): > > Second, US soldiers would have died because someone read my posts on a message board? I didn’t know I’m that powerful. Neat. I for one welcome our new FinnAgain overlord. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/225 "2005-11-18T03:23:47Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > I for one welcome our new FinnAgain overlord. Why thank you! Sometimes it seems like an overlord can’t get no respect. Some of my slaves have even begun to roll their eyes at me when I command them to “Bathe her and bring her to me.” The nerve! ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/226 "2005-11-18T03:50:49Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Some of my slaves have even begun to roll their eyes at me when I command them to “Bathe her and bring her to me.” > > The nerve! Huh. You just don’t grok pheromones. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/227 "2005-11-18T03:57:34Z")
Naw, I grok in fullness. It’s just that, as befitting my status as an Un-American antihero, I hate all things which remind me of America. I require that my concubines be cleansed of the stink of their capitalist filth before I have my way with them. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/228 "2005-11-18T04:20:56Z")
And of course we have the continuing one man trainwreck that is **Uppy**. [Here he is in classic form.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6809296&postcount=272) Yet again, he is using the oh-so-mature dodge of “I know you are but what am I?!?” when faced with any factual challenges. After he has refused to discuss the factual claims I raised, either in this thread or the other thread, he now says I am the one who will not discuss facts. He claims that I have called people stupid or assholes who do not interpret that data the same way I do, even when I specifically said that people could disagree on that, and after he, himself, said that those who disagree are slanderous, malicious liars. He has the nerve to claim I’ve put forward no evidence, when I’ve given at least a dozen cites. He has shown himself to have virtually no redeeming qualities, at all. When whooshed by **Tom** , **Uppy** turned militant and nasty. When Pitted for intellectual dishonesty and stupidity, he claimed that people hated him because he was a Republican and a Christian. When challenged on factual claims he wriggles and squirms like a worm in mud. Am I alone in hoping that **Uppy** decides not to re-register when next year comes around? I mean, having some concentrated ignorance on hand for when we need to fight it is good and all, but maybe we could get a new pet moron who doesn’t shit all over the carpet? Could we maybe just get a maglite and shine it on him in order to scare him away? ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/229 "2005-11-18T04:40:16Z")
**FinnAgain** , where’s your proof that dozens of people have been tortured to death by U.S. troops? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/230 "2005-11-18T05:45:27Z")
Just how stupid are you? Why don’t you look at the cites you’ve already been given rather than requesting that I give them to you, again. I’m not about to repost them if you’re just going to ignore them, again. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/231 "2005-11-18T05:48:01Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > **FinnAgain** , where’s your proof that dozens of people have been tortured to death by U.S. troops? Not yet conclusive, but here is information regarding [108 [who] Died In U.S. Custody](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/16/terror/main680658.shtml) as of last April. Then there is the report that there have been [Twenty-Seven Detainee Homicides in U.S. Custody](http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/media/2005_alerts/etn_1019_dic.htm) among the reports detailing > [@](#): > > More than 100 detainees have died in U.S. custody since 2002, Human Rights First research in a soon to be released report indicates, including 27 cases the Army has to date identified as suspected or confirmed homicides, and at least seven cases in which detainees were tortured to death. (Now, I reealize that your immediate quibble will be that “only” seven have been “tortured to death,” but before you get excited in your innumeracy, I will point out that the exact causes of the more than 100 deaths have not yet all been documented and I suspect that we will come up with several more pretty soon,) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/232 "2005-11-18T06:04:57Z")
I think it’s also important to note that not all of them necessarily had to die while being beaten. If, for instance, we beat the hell out of someone and then dump them in their cell, and they die due to their wounds, I think it’s perfectly fair to say that they’d died as a result of torture. Being unnecessarily narrow in an interpretation of ‘deaths due to torture’ seems unnecessarily obfuscatory to me. And just to throw a pair of pennies into the arena, **Tom** , I’d note that your first cite (which I’m sure I’ve given various versions of in both threads) has a quote which bears analysis. > [@](#): > > Defense Department spokesman Lt. Col. John Skinner said the military has taken steps to reduce the chance of violent uprisings at its prisons and the use of excessive force by soldiers, and also has improved the health care available to prisoners. > > “The military has dramatically improved detention operations, everything from increased oversight and improved facilities to expanded training and the availability of state-of-the-art medical care,” he said in a statement. This would, of course, imply that previous oversight was lacking. That there was inadequate training, and that medical facilities were not up to the level of dealing with problems. And of course, that excessive force was being used by soldiers. I see no reason to mention these changes if nothing had to be changed. I also see no reason to parse the 18 confirmed criminal homicides into torture/abuse/torture-lite/fratboy hazing/what have you. It’s the same actions in space-time no matter what label we slap on it. And while it would certainly be made worse if the soldiers were acting under orders, even if they were not that’s no defense. Someone in the chain of command has to be responsible, and as of yet all we’ve seen are scapegoats. I also find the whole situation with not having proper medical facilities to be rather disturbing. The Geneva Convention and common sense would tell you that the place for a wounded/injured man is in a hospital, not a prison. I still remember hearing stories from my grandfather while he was still alive. He was a medic and rose to the rank of Major in the US Army during WWII. He was awarded both the bronze star and the purple heart, and told stories of crawling into minefields to rescue wounded Nazi soldiers. It strikes me that if we can retain our moral standards while fighting the greatest threat to freedom the 20th century saw, then we certainly can do the same when arresting people who we can’t even charge with crimes. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/233 "2005-11-18T11:50:20Z")
I want to point something out as well about the nature of the alleged equivalency between Bush starting a war on intel he knew to be flawed, and me stating a case on information which has not been factually refuted. Bush created a cabal of cronies in the form of the OSP. The OSP’s job was to take information which the experts had rejected and try to spin it or simply use it as if it hadn’t already been rejected. So, to put a finer point on it, Bush was accepting as ‘facts’ that which the experts were telling him weren’t true. In contrast, the case concerning the US’s pattern of ‘abuse’ is based on experts’ investigations; the ACLU, Human Rights Watch, investigative journalists, etc… who have not been gainsayed by any credible sources. Yes yes, some random folks on message boards have called these findings into question, but so what? Listening to the Keyboard Warriors over the experts would, indeed, be like listening to the OSP over the experts. Now, back to facts: [Time.com](http://Time.com) has a very, very informative piece [here.](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html) It gets into the climate in which these actions were taking place. I already cited this in post 205, but I’ll pull a few quotes from it now: > [@](#): > > The new allegations center around systematic abuse of Iraqi detainees by men of the 82nd Airborne at Camp Mercury, a forward operating base located near Fallujah, the scene of a major uprising against the U.S. occupation in April 2004, according to sources familiar with the report and accounts given by the Captain, who is in his mid-20s, to Senate staff. Much of the abuse allegedly occurred in 2003 and 2004, before and during the period the Army was conducting an internal investigation into the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, but prior to when the abuses at Abu Ghraib became public. Other alleged abuses described in the Human Rights report occurred at Camp Tiger, near Iraq’s border with Syria, and previously in Afghanistan. In addition, the report details what the Captain says was his unsuccessful effort over 17 months to get the attention of military superiors. > [@](#): > > The Human Rights Watch report—as well as accounts given to Senate staff—describe officers as aware of the abuse but routinely ignoring or covering it up. > [@](#): > > The Captain is quoted in the report describing how military intelligence personnel at Camp Mercury directed enlisted men to conduct daily beatings of prisoners prior to questioning; to subject detainees to strenuous forced exercises to the point of unconsciousness; and to expose them to extremes of heat and cold—all methods designed to produce greater cooperation with interrogators. Non-uniformed personnel—apparently working for the Central Intelligence Agency, according to the soldiers—also interrogated prisoners. The interrogators were out of view but not out of earshot of the soldiers, who overheard what they came to believe was abuse. > [@](#): > > Prisoners were designated as PUCs (pronounced “pucks”)—or “persons under control.” A regular pastime at Camp Mercury, the report says, involved off-duty soldiers gathering at PUC tents, where prisoners were held, and working off their frustrations in activities known as “F\_\_\_\_a PUC” (beating the prisoner) and “Smoke a PUC” (forced physical exertion, sometimes to the point of collapse). Broken limbs and similar painful injuries would be treated with analgesics, the soldiers claim, as medical staff would fill out paperwork stating the injuries occurred during capture. > [@](#): > > Support for some of the allegations of abuse come from a sergeant of the 82nd Airborne who served in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Human Rights Watch quotes him as saying that, "To ‘F\_\_\_\_ a PUC’ means to beat him up. We would give them blows to the head, chest, legs, and stomach, pull them down, kick dirt on them. This happened every day. To ‘smoke’ someone is to put them in stress positions until they get muscle fatigue and pass out. That happened every day. Some days we would just get bored so we would have everyone sit in a corner and then make them get in a pyramid. This was before Abu Ghraib but just like it. We did that for amusement. > [@](#): > > “Everyone in camp knew if you wanted to work out your frustration you show up at the PUC tent. In a way it was sport. The cooks were all U.S. soldiers. One day a sergeant shows up and tells a PUC to grab a pole. He told him to bend over and broke the guy’s leg with a mini Louisville Slugger that was a metal bat. He was the cook.” > [@](#): > > The Human Rights Watch report describes the Captain, in particular, as deeply frustrated by his attempts to report the abuse to his own superiors, who repeatedly instructed him to keep quiet, to ignore what he’d seen and to consider the implications for his career. > [@](#): > > The Captain also says he was told there were pictures of abuse that occurred at Camp Mercury similar to photos taken by Military Police at Abu Ghraib prison. It is not clear whether the Captain saw the pictures, but he has said, sources tell TIME, that the photos were so similar to what was depicted at Abu Ghraib that, when the scandal erupted, soldiers burned them out of fear that they too could be punished. > [@](#): > > Since the Abu Ghraib scandal became public, hundreds of cases of alleged abuse have emerged based on reports from the International Committee of the Red Cross, U.S. government documents, prisoner legal filings and other sources. The Army alone says it has conducted investigations into more than 400 allegations of detainee mistreatment. To date, more than 230 Army personnel have been dealt with in courts martial, non-judicial punishments and other administrative actions. And [The HRW report.](http://hrw.org/reports/2005/us0905/) And this is just a snippet of all the evidence out there. We have heart failure listed as a ‘natural’ cause of death, even though our forces have had a policy of forcing prisoners to exercise till they drop; something which certainly causes one to question just how ‘natural’ those heart attacks were. We have cases of military doctors lying and covering up abuses that our troops commited. We have cases of military commanders covering up abuses that our troops commited. We have cases of ‘extraordinary rendition’ when we send people to be tortured via practices which are worse than even those our forces will engage in. And we are just as morally culpable for those who we send to be tortured by other nations as those who we torture ourselves. We have a case in which a military autopsy listed the cause of death for a prisoner as ‘natural’, when a civilian autopsy found skull fractures and concluded that the death was due to blunt force trauma. We have cases in which detainees were forced to sign denials of abuse they had suffered or risk never being let out of prison. Etc, etc, etc… So if one were to hold the two side by side, they are nothing alike. Bush used non-experts to cherry pick data in order to conform to a pre-determined conclusion. Various experts and investigative journalists have investigated the data coming from our ‘detainees’ and our troops and found a pattern emerging from it. Perhaps a torture apologist might make a ‘case’ based on the fact that we simply do not know how many people have died due to direct or indirect effects of torture. This is, of course, true to a degree. We may never know the exact number, but that’s part of what a coverup is all about. We do know that the military itself has termed 18 deaths criminal homicides, and is investigating another 8 deaths as criminal homicides. We know that the military has not investigated all such deaths. We know that some of these cases of ‘death via abuse’ may very well include more than one person. We know all this and more. So perhaps the most anally accurate phrasing one could use is that there are at least 18 criminal homicides that our forces commited upon prisoners in our custody, eight more that seem quite likely, and a number of other probable incidents. This list, of course, only includes those prisoners who aren’t in our ‘secret’ prisons or those who’ve been farmed out to other nations for extreme forms of torture. All of this taken together means that an estimate of somewhere around 24 deaths, give or take a few, seems to be the absolute lowest estimate one could reach. The question of whether it was “only” 18, or several more, is academic. And to cast the debate in terms of ‘malice’ ‘slander’ ‘lies’, etc… is to tacitly become an apologist for torture. What, even the Army admits that there were at least 18 criminal homicides, but to estimate that there may have been a few more is slanderous malicious lying? “18 is just fine, but if you think that there might been as few six more, you’re a slanderous America hating liar! Never mind that the Army itself thinks there might have been upwards of eight more. Why does the Army hate the Army?” Team Apologist is scraping the bottom of the barrel here. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/234 "2005-11-18T16:23:23Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > It is all very confusing to me. Only because you are incredibly dense. Smoking those party joints lately? > [@New Iskander](#): > > If Bush lied, then he lied for a important cause. A true and good cause needs no lies to bolster it, it stands on its own merits. > [@New Iskander](#): > > Therefore, ultimately it is acceptable to lie for a cause. And **BeginAgain** does have a good cause (anti-torture). Therefore, he has nothing to be ashamed of. Once again, a true and good cause needs no lies to bolster it, it stands on its own merits. > [@New Iskander](#): > > But Bush might not have lied. As Sen. McCain said, Perhaps Bush simply overstated his case, which is not be a lie. Therefore, overstating his case doesn’t make **FinnAgain** a liar. Oh, he lies constantly. He flipflops all over the place, on every subject. He piles lies upon lies. The exact and literal quotes, exactly as spoken, are all over the web, even on the official White House site for all to see. > [@New Iskander](#): > > One can be a liar and have nothing to be ashamed of, or one can be not a liar even if one has,- technically,- lied. Is that like technically or kinda sort technicality of perjury? There is the truth and there is the lie. There is no such thing as a “technical” lie. If Bush had really believed the stories he originally told us all, he could have made it right by saying “I made a mistake, I was wrong”. That would be understood and might even gain him some respect. But to repeatedly change his stories, and bullheadedly stick to every one of them, even as they change, means he didn’t believe his own stories. The way he attacks anyone who dissents, instead of fighting them with evidence and proof, simply makes him more of a liar. Reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/235 "2005-11-18T16:27:26Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Why thank you! Sometimes it seems like an overlord can’t get no respect. > Some of my slaves have even begun to roll their eyes at me when I command them to “Bathe her and bring her to me.” > > The nerve! Need a henchman? What’s yer benefits package look like? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/236 "2005-11-18T19:06:45Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Need a henchman? What’s yer benefits package look like? 😃 [A brief overview of my organization.](http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html) You do have to hate America though… but since you’re to the left of Ghengis Kahn, I think we can assume that’s already the case. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/237 "2005-11-18T19:18:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [A brief overview of my organization.](http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html) > You do have to hate America though… but since you’re to the left of Ghengis Kahn, I think we can assume that’s already the case. I just read your Top 100 Things, and I find your platform compatible with my philosophy. All hail Heinous Overlord Finn ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/238 "2005-11-18T20:46:35Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > All hail Heinous Overlord Finn Ahhhh, now that’s more like it! Would you perhaps like your own Latin American country? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/239 "2005-11-18T20:53:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > First, they’re not exagerations. The military itself has charged their own with 18 cases of homicide and are investigating another 8 as criminal homicides. That doesn’t include all the cases of people with heart problems who may very well have been subjected to our admitted policies of exercising-till-they-drop. > > Second, US soldiers would have died because someone read my posts on a message board? I didn’t know I’m that powerful. Neat. They were exaggerations; your subsequent appeals that even one case of torture is too many are the proof that you realize that. Mind, I already said that you have nothing to be ashamed of and your cause is good. I will not call you a traitor, but I will have to call you a certain F-word. Suppose you are a prosecutor in court. What happens if you overstate your case? Simple. You won’t obtain a conviction. You will **F** ail in performing your professional duty. In court, if you utter rush statements unsupported by factual evidence, your case will be thrown out, regardless how good it is. You will be a **F** ailure. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/240 "2005-11-18T20:54:59Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ahhhh, now that’s more like it! > > Would you perhaps like your own Latin American country? [Hands in the air in a victory sign, in a Lex Luthor voice] Australia![/Hands in the …] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097.md?page=13)