# Updike and New Iskander, it's a twofer tuesday! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097 "2005-11-08T20:42:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/261 "2005-11-19T04:42:09Z")
I don’t want to be rude or anything, but I’d like to remind everybody that I rightfully own 50% percent of this here thread. So listen carefully: The reason **THE FinnAgain** went ga-ga on me was he didn’t like his sudden deep affection for CIA secret agents exposed to the world. So I’d like to ask, How is outing the CIA agent is a treason, but falsely accusing the whole US Army in Iraq of systematic torture is not? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/262 "2005-11-19T05:16:13Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > How is outing the CIA agent is a treason, but falsely accusing the whole US Army in Iraq of systematic torture is not? Cite for where I’ve accused “the whole army” in Iraq? Cite for where I’ve made the claim that there was “systematic torture” on behalf of “the whole army” in Iraq? No such cites exists, because you’re making that up. Maybe you’re playing dumb and trying to bait me, yet again? [Systemic](http://merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary) does not mean ubiquitious, but having to do with the nature of the sytem. Fallacy of Division, ten points off. In addition, every claim I’ve made has been substantiated by cites. Finally, I have argued that outing a covert agent would _not_ qualify as treason. I’ve done so in another thread, and no, I will not provide you with a cite but I will if anybody else asks. Swing and a miss **Isky** ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/263 "2005-11-19T06:08:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Maybe you’re playing dumb and trying to bait me, yet again? [Systemic](http://merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary) does not mean ubiquitious, but having to do with the nature of the sytem. Fallacy of Division, ten points off. You are playing dumb and baiting yourself for both of us. I didn’t say systemic, I said [systematic](http://merriamwebster.com/dictionary/systematic). I take back those ten points plus your wallet, checkbook and your shirt, too. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/264 "2005-11-19T06:12:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Not yet conclusive, but here is information regarding [108 [who] Died In U.S. Custody](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/16/terror/main680658.shtml) as of last April. **tomndebb** You’re absolutely right, it is not conclusive, yet FinnAgain is posting as if it were the gospel truth. Which is totally disingenous on his part. Does he think that if he repeats himself enough times in enough threads, it will be conclusive? I don’t think it does. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/265 "2005-11-19T06:26:26Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > You are playing dumb and baiting yourself for both of us. I didn’t say systemic, I said systematic. Yeah spunky, you said systematic, but **I** didn’t. That’s kinda the point. So yes, you’re playing dumb, and baiting me. And then playing dumb about playing dumb, in order to bait me. Either that or you were simply lying when you tried to put words into my mouth. Six o’ one, half dozen o’ another. [ > [@](#): > > “There is evidence of systemic problems…” ]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6805975&postcount=205](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6805975&postcount=205)) Minus twenty points for playing dumb and then playing dumb when caught at playing dumb. At this rate you’re going to have to stay late after class just to fail. > [@Updike](#): > > You’re absolutely right, it is not conclusive, yet FinnAgain is posting as if it were the gospel truth Yet again **Uppy** , the military has said that there are 18 **conclusive** cases of criminal homicides, and eight more which are suspected. Which, of course, you are ignoring because you haven’t yet [had anything substantial to ape.](http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/bigdogmetoo.htm) Waiting for marching orders you bravely spew words at me. Good show. Beyond that, we have at least one case of death via blunt force trauma which was written off as natural causes before non-military doctors got a chance to look at the body, and several of massive heart failure when it is a well known policy for our troops to have forced detainees to exercise past the point of exhaustion. As such, that there are **at the very least 18 confirmed criminal homicides** is indeed ‘gospel’. And as I have pointed out, we may never know the exact total, but an estimate of at least two dozen, give or take a few, is certainly well supported by the facts. > [@Updike](#): > > Which is totally disingenous on his part. Please address my actual argument and tell me which piece of my factual evidence or process of reasoning is specious. Use specifics. Or just keep babbling, your call. > [@Updike](#): > > Does he think that if he repeats himself enough times in enough threads, it will be conclusive? Yeah **Uppy** , it certainly doesn’t have anything to do with the massive number of cites I’ve provided, which you’re overlooked in order to give us this inane mewling. Why don’t you try actually discussing the arguments which are made, rather than engaging in your normal song and dance, eh? Through this entire thread you have yet to answer **one single factual issue** and have instead displayed a level of ignorance that is either supremely willful, or unbelievably stupid. While **Isky** plays stupid to be, I’d assume, as he put it earlier “provocative and inflammatory”, you, I think, are just blindingly stupid. You could try to fall and miss the ground. > [@Updike](#): > > I don’t think it does. You don’t need the last two words in that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/266 "2005-11-19T06:40:42Z")
I guess I didn’t realize that 18 = 24. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/267 "2005-11-19T06:53:21Z")
So, what, **Uppy** , you’re going to hang your claims of ‘malicious slanderous lies’ on _that_? Awfully cute, schmuck. How about, finally, addressing any of the evidence I’ve put forward which would lead us to conclude that: “All of this taken together means that an estimate of somewhere around 24 deaths, give or take a few, seems to be the absolute lowest estimate one could reach.” How about retracting your idiocy about how it is ‘malicious’ to believe the evidence and the pattern it represents? Mmmm? How about the fact that the military itself suspects that there are at the very least eight more criminal homicides, and that doesn’t even count the people who we may very well have exercised to death? Awful odd that so many people have died from heart trouble when we have had a policy of exercising people until they lose consciousness, aint it? Or those who we may’ve listed as natural causes when there was evidence of other homicide? I’ve cited one case where non-military doctors found blunt force trauma to be the cause when the military had said the death was due to ‘natural causes’. I’ve cited how at one army base physicians **routinely** lied about how prisoners received injuries while officers engaged in coverups of the evidence. Want to address **any** facts, or just go back to mewling? Are you anything more than a pathetic puppet following at the heels of a big dog, yapping as you go? [You sure are scary in your rhetorical fury.](http://pics.hoobly.com/full/9V1ZXB1XSXFE.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/268 "2005-11-19T08:28:22Z")
To put a finer point on it, you claimed that I was somehow being ‘disingenuous’. Perhaps you were being dumb, but [I do not think that word means what you think it means.](http://merriamwebster.com/dictionary/disingenuous) Do you have **any** reason, at all, to doubt my sincerity? I mean, any ‘reason’ beyond whatever you cooked up to justify your claims of “malice”? Can you answer without first getting spoonfed by a hyper-angry keyboard-thug? You also suggested that I was arguing merely by saying the same thing over and over, and not giving data. That, in case you missed it, is how you argue, not me. So [del]if you have any intelletual honesty[/del] just to humor me, why don’t you discuss the actual cites I’ve given and why, in your view, they do not support the conclusion that the 18 known and 8 suspected criminal homicides are not all that’s gone on? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/269 "2005-11-19T08:48:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Finally, I have argued that outing a covert agent would _not_ qualify as treason. And I said that you are NOT a traitor. So what the hell all that was about? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/270 "2005-11-19T09:22:17Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > And I said that you are NOT a traitor. > So what the hell all that was about? > [@New Iskander](#): > > The reason THE FinnAgain went ga-ga on me was he didn’t like his sudden deep affection for CIA secret agents exposed to the world. > So I’d like to ask, > How is outing the CIA agent is a treason, but falsely accusing the whole US Army in Iraq of systematic torture is not? Either your prose has simply run away with you, or you are yet again playing dumb in order to bait me. In either case, until you start debating in good faith, I will simply not respond to your goading. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/271 "2005-11-19T23:58:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > All of this taken together means that an estimate of somewhere around 24 deaths, give or take a few, seems to be the absolute lowest estimate one could reach. In other words, you can’t back up your original claim, i.e., dozens tortured to death by U.S. troops, but you’ll keep repeating it anyway. Slimy behavior. You reek of it. You, sir, are not a gentleman. Therefore, I choose not to engage in conversation with a creature such as yourself any longer. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/272 "2005-11-20T00:23:19Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > In other words, you can’t back up your original claim, i.e., dozens tortured to death by U.S. troops, but you’ll keep repeating it anyway. All bark and no bite little doggy, eh? Not only have I backed it up, I’ve done so with many, many cites. None of which you’ve actually addressed in anything more than a cursory manner. So, you coward, not going to touch on any of the evidence are ya? In other words, you neutron dense moron, we **can’t** know the exact number because it’s been covered up! But we can know that there are **at the very least** 18, most likely 26 or 27 according to the Military’s own estimates, and then more based on the other evidence. Evidence which you’re too much of a cowardly lapdog to actually touch on. You _do_ need to wait until you get your marching orders until you can pretend to think. Who would’ve guessed, eh? > [@Updike](#): > > Slimy behavior. You reek of it. You, sir, are not a gentleman. This from an intellectually dishonest, wannabe-martyr, brainstem-level, cowardly schmuck like you? Should I be proud of the fact that all you want to do is toss insults and you seem pathalogically unable to, ever, address any arguments anywhere? Can’t discuss what you’re Pitted for, gotta hop up on the cross. Can’t retract your claims of ‘malice’, even when it’s shown that you were just vomiting up your big dog’s shit that you’d licked up. Can’t address the facts, just gotta yip and yelp as you try to bite at my ankles. How dare you say I’m “not a gentleman” when you **refuse to look at any of the data I’ve provided**? Data which does indeed show that ‘two dozens’ is a low estimate. > [@Updike](#): > > Therefore, I choose not to engage in conversation with a creature such as yourself any longer. Translation: “You’ve spanked me but good, and I’m too much of a whiney intellectually dishonest coward to actually address why the facts support the estimate you’ve given, so I’m going to run away and claim victory.” Good show **Uppy** , or should it be **Puppy** , since the big dog hasn’t told you what to think yet? But don’t worry, if you spew your mental waste in any threads again, I’ll be happy to point out just why you’re one of the stupidest posters here and deserving of the Anti-Doper crown. Ignore me all you want, I’ll still gladly kick you from one end of the court to the other and back again if your yipping and barking annoys me. Run away **Puppy** , run away. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/273 "2005-11-20T06:27:46Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > …Slimy behavior. You reek of it. Therefore, I choose not to engage in conversation with a creature such as yourself any longer. Slimy…Reeking…Creature…now I don’t usually feel the need to make ad hominem attacks, but let us see if these words are an accurate description of YOU. > [@Updike](#): > > [Post 49](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6764970&postcount=49)… popping off an abortionist or two is NOT the same as what some Muslim fanatics do, like flying airplanes into buildings, blowing up trains, buses, pizza parlors, etc. … Popping off? Don’t you mean murdering? You value buildings, mass transit, and pizza more than human life? Killing Doctors is not the same as killing train conductors, bus drivers, or pizza makers? Is some murder worse than other murder in your eyes? Is “popping” people off one at a time less egregious than mass murder? Can it be that you think murder is just a numbers game? > [@Updike](#): > > I guess I didn’t realize that 18 = 24. My bad. Why yes, apparently you do, Yeah, sing the song, Bro’… …Now if 6 turned out to be 9, I don’t mind, I don’t mind,… …Dig, 'cos I got my own world to live through… Sing on Brother Updike, solo on the war drum! (Sorry Jimi, but it is a conservative pointing his finger at us, hoping our kind will drop and die.) Is it the blowing things up that you object to? > [@Updike](#): > > [Post 55](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6765090&postcount=55)What bile is being spewed? A Christian fanatic protests at a funeral, or even blows up an abortion clinic. THAT’S EVIL! Meanwhile, we have 9/11, Madrid, London, Bali, and ongoing attacks in Israel thanks to Muslim fanatics. And we’re supposed to accomodate their demands, and appease their wittle feewings. Sorry, I’m not drinking that koolaid, Mr. Chamberlain Protest at a funeral, blow up an abortion clinic, yeah that’s pretty much the same thing. (Since you don’t want the “koolaid”, can I interest you in a tall glass of grape Flavor-aid® instead? I just made a big batch all for you!) > [@Updike](#): > > [Post 36](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6763909&postcount=36) And before you give me any more shit, how many abortion doctors have been killed in the last five years by Christian “fundamentalists”? One? Two? > In the same time period, how many innocent civilians were killed by Islamic fundamentalists in New York, Washington, Pennsylvannia, Madrid, London, Bali, Israel, etc. etc. etc. > Putting the two groups in the same sentence is ludicrous and reprehensible. Ahh, maybe it’s the killing of innocent people? > [@Updike](#): > > [Post 57](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6765100&postcount=57) The person on the bus is “guilty” of being Jewish, I guess. That would be part of the Islamic fundamentalist’s excuse for murder. But we all know that killing people because of who they are, or what they do is never acceptable, right? > [@Updike](#): > > [Post 52](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6765068&postcount=52)…Because a random person on a bus is presumptively innocent, whereas an abortionist is arguably not. Well I was wrong about that one! Islamic fundamentalists; a Jew is arguably not innocent, Updike; an abortionist is arguably not innocent, Nice moral company you keep. Slimy…Reeking…Creature…no that would be an insult to slimy reeking creatures! > [@Updike](#): > > …You, sir, are not a gentleman… Then sir, I assume you would claim to be a gentleman yourself > [@Updike](#): > > [Post 135](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6769084&postcount=135)Oh look, I’m being critcized by Guinastaisa, who apparently lives with Mommy at age 25 and couldn’t hold a job to save her life. > Color me unimpressed. Some gentleman, my chivalric instincts insist that this insult not go unchallenged, pistols, at dawn, you uncouth lout! Upon reflection, you don’t deserve the honor of a duel, your a waste of good powder and lead! Color me unimpressed. Color you shit-brown! By the way, Pennsylvannia is spelled Pennsylvania, one N :wally critcized is spelled criticized, missed the I :wally accomodate is spelled accommodate, two Ms :wally koolaid is spelled Kool-Aid, capital K capital A and a hyphen :wally But spelling, is the least of your mental problems! :wally ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/274 "2005-11-20T12:55:10Z")
Doesn’t it bother anyone in the least, that we are even discussing U.S sanctioned torture, let a lone entertaining the notion that we should or should not use it? What the fuck happened to this country? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/275 "2005-11-20T14:30:26Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Doesn’t it bother anyone in the least, that we are even discussing U.S sanctioned torture, let a lone entertaining the notion that we should or should not use it? What the fuck happened to this country? Well, everything changed after 9/11. Terrorists hate us and our liberties. Terrorists are trying to spread their terror around the globe. It’s kind of like the Red Menace, only X-Treme to the maxxxxx. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/276 "2005-11-21T00:37:34Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Well I was wrong about that one! > Islamic fundamentalists; a Jew is arguably not innocent, > Updike; an abortionist is arguably not innocent, > Nice moral company you keep. A Jew on a bus is guilty of nothing. An abortionist is guilty of murdering unborn children. Nice moral company YOU keep, if you can’t see the difference. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/277 "2005-11-21T00:55:48Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > A Jew on a bus is guilty of nothing. An abortionist is guilty of murdering unborn children. Nice moral company YOU keep, if you can’t see the difference. Abortion is legal you numbnuts. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/278 "2005-11-21T03:52:25Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > A Jew on a bus is guilty of nothing. An abortionist is guilty of murdering unborn children. Nice moral company YOU keep, if you can’t see the difference. Exactly what you were Pitted for, among other things. Christian fundamentalist terrorists are just peachy in your book, it’s them Muslim terrorists who you’ve got a problem with. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/279 "2005-11-21T03:52:46Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Abortion is legal you numbnuts. And that proves what, exactly? So are honor killings, stoning, and FGM in some places on this Earth. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/280 "2005-11-21T04:20:10Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > And that proves what, exactly? So are honor killings, stoning, and FGM in some places on this Earth. You will then fell at home in the places where those things you mention are happening, because by the same rotten mentality those places ALSO do more than just ban abortion: [http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGACT770012005?open&of=ENG-398](http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGACT770012005?open&of=ENG-398) > [@](#): > > In Nigeria and some other jurisdictions, women can be subject to a state-ordered death sentence if they are found to have had a termination of pregnancy. During a research visit to Nigeria in March 2003, Amnesty International interviewed seven women detained at Katsina prison, Katsina State, and found that one of the women had already been convicted of “culpable homicide” and sentenced to death by hanging for having had an abortion. Of the women still awaiting trial, three had been charged with the capital offence of culpable homicide. Two of the women had been charged or convicted under the Penal Code and one under the Shari’a penal code of Katsina.(60) In many other jurisdictions women are punished for seeking or having terminations of pregnancy.(61) Your mentality is really the one of a troglodyte who is more in tune with honor killings, stoning, and FGM. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097.md?page=15)