# Updike and New Iskander, it's a twofer tuesday! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097 "2005-11-08T20:42:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/301 "2005-11-21T19:28:08Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Most of the terrorists haven’t been convicted of a crime, either. They have a fortunate tendency to blow themselves up first. It doesn’t mean they deserve any sort of consideration, though. I see you share the same “judicial philosophy” as your heroes, Bush abd Cheney and Libby and Ashcroft and Rumsfeld and Gonzales. Guilty until proven guilty. I hereby accuse you of piracy, murder, kidnapping, war crimes, burning puppies and eating live kttens. And lots of other stuff that is too secret to say (national security ya know). Turn yourself in to the nearest secret torture facility for “processing” immediately. Due process. trial by the courts or tribunal (at least some sort of trial). Evidence. Testimony. Proof of guilt. If someone else is not entitled to these things, neither are you. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/302 "2005-11-21T21:08:52Z")
Updike, you seem to have a rather unfortunate tendency to think in stereotypes. It may be surprising for you to learn (I could just stop the sentence right there, really, couldn’t I?) that merely being against Bush, or the Iraq War (because hey, people can be for one and against the other!) does not automatically make them weeping, wimpy, crying heart liberals who would rather sit down with terrorists and have a nice conversation over tea and biscuits before asking them politely whether they might, possibly, think about maybe stop blowing people up? It’s called a stereotype, mon ami (Oh no! By speaking french i’m only HELPING THE TERRORISTS!), because it’s an exaggeration. And, alas, when you resort to “Oh no, i’m wrong, but hey, I can just make pointed stereotypical remarks about the opposition in response to anything they say!” it is nearing the end of debate. Or, indeed, the beginning; I too, like Finn, would very much like to see you refute some of the arguments he has made. Take, for example, the premises of the last few arguments he’s made, build up your argument against him, find cites to back it up, and enter reality. ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/303 "2005-11-21T21:29:54Z")
**Updike** may I intoduce [**VC03**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6820179&postcount=21). We have two late entrants for our little contest. Both putting up a strong showing. It could be a photo finish. **andrewdt85** has gone for the volume entry. **VC03** has gone for [See how many posters say ‘fuck you’ thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=345849) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/304 "2005-11-21T21:32:48Z")
> [@rayh](#): > > **Updike** may I intoduce [**VC03**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6820179&postcount=21). > > We have two late entrants for our little contest. Both putting up a strong showing. It could be a photo finish. > > **andrewdt85** has gone for the volume entry. > > **VC03** has gone for [See how many posters say ‘fuck you’ thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=345849) **Finn** these are two excellent new contenders. You must consider their merits. Jim ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/305 "2005-11-21T21:40:50Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > **Finn** these are two excellent new contenders. You must consider their merits. Well, to be fair, the Doper community must consider their merits, but I don’t see why they can’t be included in this thread as competition for Anti-Doper of the year. I still think that **Puppy** will probably take the crown as he’s not just stupid, but militant and obnoxious in his ignorance… but I’ve been wrong before. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/306 "2005-11-21T22:44:16Z")
[The lovefest between our two most recent contenders is straight up weird.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6820940#post6820940) Now they’ve **both** taken to using massive text. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/307 "2005-11-22T00:10:20Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [The lovefest between our two most recent contenders is straight up weird.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6820940#post6820940) Now they’ve **both** taken to using massive text. This is kind of amazing. I think in the next week \*\*andrewdt85 \*\* might pull ahead. I can’t believe he started that thread. Hopefully he wises up. Jim ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/308 "2005-11-22T01:31:16Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I can’t believe he started that thread. Hopefully he wises up. > > Jim The sane, sensible, responsible side of me agrees with you. But then there’s my evil twin yelling “Post on, braveheart! Don’t let the bastards wear you down!” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/309 "2005-11-22T02:14:59Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > I too, like Finn, would very much like to see you refute some of the arguments he has made. Take, for example, the premises of the last few arguments he’s made, build up your argument against him, find cites to back it up, and enter reality. It ain’t gonna happen any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/310 "2005-11-22T02:39:31Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > It ain’t gonna happen any time soon. If it was an allegedly intelligent, well respected poster, say like **Scylla** , I’m sure there would be a response. Right? Right? ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/311 "2005-11-22T05:16:19Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Or, indeed, the beginning; I too, like Finn, would very much like to see you refute some of the arguments he has made. Take, for example, the premises of the last few arguments he’s made, build up your argument against him, find cites to back it up, and enter reality. You’ve got it exactly backwards. Finn made the argument that dozens of people have been tortured to death by U.S. troops. Despite repeated requests, by multiple posters, he has been unable to provide proof that his statement is true. I’m not the one who needs to provide agruments against him, he needs to provide evidence that his initial claim is true. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/312 "2005-11-22T05:28:26Z")
Do you think that others can’t read the dozens of cites I’ve given just because you claim I didn’t give them? Do you even believe your own bullshit? Did your mommy give you lead paint chips to suck on as a child? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/313 "2005-11-22T15:06:00Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > You’ve got it exactly backwards. Finn made the argument that dozens of people have been tortured to death by U.S. troops. Despite repeated requests, by multiple posters, he has been unable to provide proof that his statement is true. I’m not the one who needs to provide agruments against him, he needs to provide evidence that his initial claim is true. He’s provided evidence that the US Army has confirmed there have been, definetley, 18 criminal homicides. Fact. Also, that they currently suspect there are another 8 more cases. True, that’s not dozens. If six of these suspected cases are found, indeed, to be criminal homicide, then it will be dozens. But, as of yet, it’s not. It’s 18. If you want to make the argument that Finn was exaggerating, or because of his viewpoint believing (_possibly_ erroneously) that there have been at least 6 more deaths, and that there are no definites about any more than 18, sure, that’d be an acceptable position. However, you do still need to provide evidence of your own to prove that Finn is wrong in his assumption that there will be more deaths from torture - for example, you could have a look to see if any media sources (or, indeed, the army itself) are saying that these current suspected cases do not have strong evidence, or a commentator saying that there will be new rules put in place which will change the situation with regards to current US torture laws. I personally think that if you don’t change something, it’s going to carry on; thus, I believe (opinion) that because there have already been 18 deaths (fact), and that no new laws are being passed or treaties signed which will affect US torture, that there will be more deaths. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/314 "2005-11-22T15:39:48Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > You’ve got it exactly backwards. Finn made the argument that dozens of people have been tortured to death by U.S. troops. Despite repeated requests, by multiple posters, he has been unable to provide proof that his statement is true. I’m not the one who needs to provide agruments against him, he needs to provide evidence that his initial claim is true. Excuse me, but I took part in that thread, and you didn’t provide much of anything at all. Finn provided numerous cites and articles. All you provided were more repeats of the same general tired questions. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/315 "2005-11-22T15:40:53Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > If it was an allegedly intelligent, well respected poster, say like **Scylla** , I’m sure there would be a response. Right? Right? Yeah, that’s right (laughing hysterically) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/316 "2005-11-22T16:04:35Z")
I still think it’s impossible to get at an exact figure as the facts of the cases have, in many instances, been covered up. Factor in the abnormally high level of deaths due to heart failure in an enviornment where forcing people to exercise until they lost consciousness wasn’t unknown, and I don’t think it’s at all beyond the pale to assume that ‘dozens’ is an accurate estimate. There were, for isntance, 19 deaths due to heart related problems listed in the ACLU’s cite. Taken in context with reports like…: [ > [@](#): > > He cites evidence that doctors or medics falsified death certificates to cover up homicides, hid evidence of beatings and revived a prisoner so he could be further tortured. No reports of abuses were initiated by medical personnel until the official investigation into Abu Ghraib began, he found. > [snip] > A military police officer reported a medic inserted an intravenous tube into the corpse of a detainee who died while being tortured to create evidence that he was alive at the hospital, Miles said. > > At prisons in both Iraq and Afghanistan, “Physicians routinely attributed detainee deaths on death certificates to heart attacks, heat stroke or natural causes without noting the unnatural (cause) of the death,” Miles wrote. > > He cites an example from a Human Rights Watch report in which soldiers tied a beaten detainee to the top of his cell door and gagged him. The death certificate indicated he died of “natural causes … during his sleep.” However, after media coverage, the Pentagon changed the cause of death to homicide by blunt force injuries and suffocation. ]([http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5761936/](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5761936/)) (By the way, that same information is echoed at [Military.com](http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_doctors_082004,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > > In some cases, the immediate cause of death was listed as a heart attack, but that was in turn caused by a beating. ]([http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/iraq/main617289.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/iraq/main617289.shtml)) …we might just start seeing a pattern. [ > [@](#): > > The original US autopsy said he had died of a heart attack. It now appears he was suffocated during interrogation when a CIA officer put him in a sleeping bag and sat on him. ]([http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1223358,00.html](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1223358,00.html)) And of course, there is analysis such as: [ > [@](#): > > The death of Mohamed Taiq Zaid was initially attributed to “heat”; it is currently and belatedly being investigated as a possible homicide due to abusive exposure to the hot Iraqi climate and deprivation of water. > > Eight prisoners suffered “natural” deaths from heart attacks or atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. Threats, beatings, fear, police interrogation, and arrests are known to cause “homicide by heart attack” or life-threatening heart failure. People with preexisting heart disease, dehydration, hyperthermia, or exhaustion are especially susceptible.[11-15] No forensic investigation of lethal “heart attacks” explores the possibility that these men died of stress-induced heart attacks. > [snip] > Sher Mohammad Khan was picked up in Afghanistan in September 2004. Shortly thereafter, his bruised body was given to his family. Military officials told journalists that he had died of a heart attack within hours of being taken into custody. No investigation, autopsy, or death certificate is available ]([http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284\_6](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284_6)) [ > [@](#): > > The 70-year-old man had a hip replacement and walked with a cane. The Christian Peacemaker Team reports the son as saying[18]: > > ``` > They pushed him like a criminal; they didn't let him use his cane because his hands were tied. They handcuffed and put plastic hoods on my father, my uncle and my brother. I heard my father say, "I can't breathe. . ." They pushed him into the vehicle. My father was in very bad condition at that time. He couldn't talk because of the bag. . . . I could hear him gasping . . . After that, my father stopped moving . . . [An] officer told me my father died from a heart attack. > > ``` ]([http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284\_6](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284_6)) [ > [@](#): > > After interrogation, a sandbag was put over his head. When he tried to remove it, guards made him jump up and down for 20 minutes with his wrists tied in front of him and then 20 minutes more with his wrists bound behind his back with a plastic binder. The bound and head-bagged man was put to bed. > [snip] > The next morning, he was found dead. The body had “bloodshot” eyes, lacerations on his wrists from the plastic ties, unexplained bruises on his abdomen, and a fresh, bruised laceration on the back of his head. US Army investigators noted that the body did not have defensive bruises on his arms, an odd notation given that a man cannot raise bound arms in defense. No autopsy was performed. The death certificate lists the cause of death as unknown. It seems likely that Mr. Kenami died of positional asphyxia because of how he was restrained, hooded, and positioned. Positional asphyxia looks just like death by a natural heart attack except for those telltale conjunctival hemorrhages in his eyes. ]([http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284\_6](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507284_6)) Although, I must say, it’s something of an inconsequential nitpick to argue over whether there were 24 or 22 or 27 or 21 or however many homicides. It seems to largely be a diversionary and obfuscatory tactic. The crimes are just as massive in terms of impact and moral implications whether it was 18 or 24. And I think that when one looks at all the factors, including the climate in which the torture was going on, that it’s not all that absurd to conclude that 24 is a valid low estimate. And, of course, to say that with 18 proven criminal homicides and a pattern of systemic problems, that an estimate of just a few more deaths is ‘slander’ ‘malice’ ‘has no proof’, etc… is just absurd. Besides, what does that bring us to? 18 confirmed criminal homicides, one that was listed as natural causes that other doctors found to be due to blunt force trauma, one death due to heat which was most likely due to the detainee not being given enough water, plus at least three who died of ‘heart attacks’ which were caused by our actions, that brings us to 23. Is it truly beyond the pale that out of the 8 more suspected criminal homicides and all the other ‘heart attacks’, only one single one was a homicide? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/317 "2005-11-22T16:10:17Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Yeah, that’s right (laughing hysterically) Thank God you posted this. I was beginning to think I’d slipped through into some bizarre alternative world where ‘Scylla’ was not a byword for ‘foaming at the mouth Bush Apologist who wouldn’t know Fact or Reason if they Uncomfortable Stress Positioned his sister to death in front of him.’ The sky is blue on your world? Just checking. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/318 "2005-11-22T16:26:11Z")
In addition, I don’t think that certain instances would be counted as they were technically not in US custody, like this one [ > [@](#): > > A hearing on evidence against four soldiers accused of forcing Iraqi civilians to jump into the Tigris River, where one man apparently drowned, will be held at Fort Carson. ]([http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040703-soldier-charged.htm](http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/040703-soldier-charged.htm)) And yet more cites: [ > [@](#): > > Washington - Two Afghan prisoners who died in American custody in Afghanistan in December 2002 were chained to the ceiling, kicked and beaten by American soldiers in sustained assaults that caused their deaths, according to Army criminal investigative reports that have not yet been made public. > > ``` > One soldier, Pfc. Willie V. Brand, was charged with manslaughter in a closed hearing last month in Texas in connection with one of the deaths, another Army document shows. Private Brand, who acknowledged striking a detainee named Dilawar 37 times, was accused of having maimed and killed him over a five-day period by "destroying his leg muscle tissue with repeated unlawful knee strikes." > > The attacks on Mr. Dilawar were so severe that "even if he had survived, both legs would have had to be amputated," the Army report said, citing a medical examiner. > > ``` > > [snip] > American military officials in Afghanistan initially said the deaths of Mr. Habibullah, in an isolation cell on Dec. 4, 2002, and Mr. Dilawar, in another such cell six days later, were from natural causes. Lt. Gen. Daniel K. McNeill, the American commander of allied forces in Afghanistan at the time, denied then that prisoners had been chained to the ceiling or that conditions at Bagram endangered the lives of prisoners. > > ``` > But after an investigation by The New York Times, the Army acknowledged that the deaths were homicides. > > ``` ]([http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/9590](http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/9590)) [ > [@](#): > > The U.S. Army says Ibrahim Al-Nedawy died of natural causes at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison. But his family says the 63-year-old villager and tribal leader was tortured and murdered during interrogation at the notorious facility. NPR’s Ari Shapiro reports. > > Al-Nedawy’s death certificate says he died of cardiac arrest on Jan. 8. His son, Ahmed, who was at Abu Ghraib with him, says Al-Nedawy died after a month and a half of beatings and humiliation. “He was tortured, and the torture was continuous,” Ahmed Al-Nedawy says. ]([http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3176362](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3176362)) [ > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON, May 25 — An Army summary of deaths and mistreatment involving prisoners in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan shows a widespread pattern of abuse involving more military units than previously known. > [snip] > But the details paint a broad picture of misconduct, and show that in many cases among the 37 prisoners who have died in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army did not conduct autopsies and says it cannot determine the causes of the deaths. > [snip] > Both deaths were ruled homicides within days, but military spokesmen in Afghanistan initially portrayed at least one as being the result of natural causes. ]([http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Abuse\_of\_Captives\_052604.htm](http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Abuse_of_Captives_052604.htm)) Etc, etc, etc. In any case, doing all this research and finding old articles which I’ve already had to read once is actually beginning to make me feel sick to my stomach. Not just that these things happened, which is revolting, but that now I’m using them to ‘score points’ in a debate. It’s like torture-porn, and it’s making me ill. For now I’ll leave things with the cites I’ve already given, which show a pattern of abuse, coverups, ‘natural causes’ which turned out to be homicides, etc… As I said a page or two ago, the evidence is certainly up for interpretation to a certain degree, but to cast the debate in terms of ‘no proof’ as **Puppy** keeps doing is simply mindless bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/319 "2005-11-23T03:31:53Z")
By the way, I was curious if anybody else reading this thread questions my data or methodology? I’m not going to dig up any more cites tonight, but I believe I’ve put forward a convincing case that an estimate of around two dozen deaths via physical damage caused by our forces is as accurate an estimate as can be expected under the circumstances. Does anybody disagree? ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097/320 "2005-11-23T03:35:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Does anybody disagree? You mean apart from **Scylla** and **Updike**? I am convinced. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/updike-and-new-iskander-its-a-twofer-tuesday/330097.md?page=17)