# Upside Down Flag Protest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624 "2009-07-11T00:50:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/21 "2009-07-11T03:18:33Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Did you read any other parts of my post? I’m on your side, dude. Completely. I just wanted to put out the known facts, including that they gave the flag back. If we find out tomorrow that his liquor license was delayed because he’s a convicted felon, has sex with goats, supports the Taliban financially, and screwed the mayor’s wife, I’ll post that info, and I’ll **STILL** think the police were wrong to take the flag. OK. Obviously if he were all the extraneous things you posit that my fervor for his cause would be quite muted. But I’d still agree. I wonder if perhaps he was standing on the side of a parade or something with his upside-down flag screaming anti-government epithets at the passers-by. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/22 "2009-07-11T03:29:18Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Typically, Marines are not crybabies, so, me being the military man I am, am going to operate under the assumption that he has a valid gripe until I see otherwise. I gotta disagree with you on this one. Flying the flag upside down sends the message that there is something seriously wrong with the country. Doing that over a liquor license is a huge over-reaction, no matter how badly he’s being dicked over by the local government. Not being able to get a liquor license isn’t a sign that the country is fucked up, it’s, at worst, a sign that you’ve got a bunch of douches on the local liquor board\*. I don’t know that I’d term it a “dick move,” precisely, but it is pretty whiney. Either way, it doesn’t remotely excuse the cops coming onto his property and taking it down. \*Or whoever it is that hands out licenses. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/23 "2009-07-11T03:34:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I gotta disagree with you on this one. Flying the flag upside down sends the message that there is something seriously wrong with the country. Doing that over a liquor license is a huge over-reaction, no matter how badly he’s being dicked over by the local government. Not being able to get a liquor license isn’t a sign that the country is fucked up, it’s, at worst, a sign that you’ve got a bunch of douches on the local liquor board\*. > > I don’t know that I’d term it a “dick move,” precisely, but it is pretty whiney. Either way, it doesn’t remotely excuse the cops coming onto his property and taking it down. > > \*Or whoever it is that hands out licenses. Possibly. This “distress” flying of the flag goes back to the Navy, yes? Of whom the Marines are the Navy’s infantry, right? Might be douchebaggery, might be something else. I’m sure a media outlet will be along promptly. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/24 "2009-07-11T03:36:52Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Possibly. This “distress” flying of the flag goes back to the Navy, yes? > > Of whom the Marines are the Navy’s infantry, right? Possibly. Can’t say as I see the relevance, though. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/25 "2009-07-11T03:57:06Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Possibly. This “distress” flying of the flag goes back to the Navy, yes? > > Of whom the Marines are the Navy’s infantry, right? Not any more. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/26 "2009-07-11T04:04:40Z")
> [@billfish](#): > > He went above and beyond supporting that flag, and because of that, I give him way more latitude than your average crybaby hippy for possible dickish behavior in how he used it. The very idea that the police action was more egregious because Congine was a former Marine instead of a DFH sickens me. Of course, so does the flag fetishism that so often passes in this country for devotion to American ideals. Why would he spend 200G on property acquisition and remodeling _before_ securing the liquor license? And can we find out how much was spent on the property and how much was spent on the remodeling? I hate when people conflate numerical data like that; it makes it impossible to get any perspective on things. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/27 "2009-07-11T04:08:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not any more. Marine Corps officers no longer come out of the Naval Academy? Huh. Who knew? And “citation, please?” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/28 "2009-07-11T04:11:02Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The very idea that the police action was more egregious because Congine was a former Marine instead of a DFH sickens me. Of course, so does the flag fetishism that so often passes in this country for adherence to American ideals. > > . Boy, everything sickens you doesnt it? I said **I** gave him more lattitude for possible dickishness than a DFH 🙂 The DFH can burn the flags and invert them as much as they want and I think the cops should leave em alone as well him. Well, maybe spray em down with water because they probably need a bath. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/29 "2009-07-11T04:17:02Z")
During the period 2000 through 2008 I often flew the flag on my vehicle upside down. (About 9"x15" in size) Lots of bewildered stares, and lots of nods and vocal gestures in agreement, even though no other communication as to its meaning ever occurred. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/30 "2009-07-11T04:23:11Z")
I think there is a _prima facie_ case that the police acted illegally by physically removing the flag. I think they might be able to defend the action if they can show that there was some kind of demonstrable disturbance, but from here it looks like an overreaction by the police. Still, they only took it down for a day, and the guy sounds like a huge dickhole, so there may have been more provocation than meets they eye. It’s not especially relevant, but we also don’t know that there isn’t a legitimate reason this guy is being denied a liquor license. The cops might have acted illegally, but it’s not the most egregious act of fascistic repression ever. They gave the baby his flag back the next day. I don’t see that he has any real damages, but somebody on the police department might deserve a reprimand or a suspension. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/31 "2009-07-11T04:26:55Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Boy, everything sickens you doesnt it? > > I said **I** gave him more lattitude for possible dickishness than a DFH 🙂 So you did. I’ll apologize for the baseless extrapolation, then. I’m still not entirely comfortable with the notion of giving one “more latitude” than the other, especially in the present context. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/32 "2009-07-11T04:35:26Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Marine Corps officers no longer come out of the Naval Academy? > > Huh. Who knew? > > And “citation, please?” The Marines and the Navy share resources, and yes, the Naval Academy trains a lot of USMC officers, but they are still separate branches. The Marines are not part of the Navy. The USMC and the Navy are separate “sister services” in the Department of the Navy. > **[United States Marine Corps | Relationship with other services](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps#Relationship_with_other_services)** > > In general, the Marine Corps shares many resources with the other branches of the United States Armed Forces. However, the Corps has consistently sought to maintain its own identity with regard to mission, funding, and assets, while using support available from the larger branches. While the Marine Corps has far fewer installations both in the U.S. and worldwide than the other branches, many Army posts, Naval stations, and Air Force bases have a Marine presence. They also cross-train with other c... ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/33 "2009-07-11T04:40:37Z")
I thought it was a well known fact that conservatives can protest by desecrating the flag but liberals can’t. ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/34 "2009-07-11T04:49:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The cops might have acted illegally, but it’s not the most egregious act of fascistic repression ever. They gave the baby his flag back the next day. I don’t see that he has any real damages, but somebody on the police department might deserve a reprimand or a suspension. Intentionally abridging someone’s Constitutional rights without due process of law is itself a damage, for which he may sue. He was denied his Constitutional right to protect his government’s actions on what is arguably the most pressing day to do so. It was the Fourth of July celebration, a day on which we celebrate our independence and the rights enshrined in our charter. The irony is palpable. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/35 "2009-07-11T05:02:37Z")
Eh…they made him stop trolling the neighborhood during a parade. I’m not saying it was justified, it was probably illegal, but it’s not like we’re living in Iran all of a sudden. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/36 "2009-07-11T13:21:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The Marines and the Navy share resources, and yes, the Naval Academy trains a lot of USMC officers, but they are still separate branches. The Marines are not part of the Navy. The USMC and the Navy are separate “sister services” in the Department of the Navy. > > [United States Marine Corps - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps#Relationship_with_other_services) The commandant of the Marine Corp answers to the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO). The command structure of a ship puts the commander of a Marine detachment on the ship under the Captian. The Marines do not have medics. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/37 "2009-07-11T15:08:03Z")
> [@Snnipe 70E](#): > > The commandant of the Marine Corp answers to the Chief of Naval Operations (CNO). Not quite. They both report directly to the Secretary of the Navy. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/38 "2009-07-11T15:10:17Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > It’s not like he was burning the damn thing. Also a constitutionally protected dick move. There’s no substantive difference between Congine’s protest and a dirty hippie burning the flag. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/39 "2009-07-11T15:12:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Eh…they made him stop trolling the neighborhood during a parade. I’m not saying it was justified, it was probably illegal, but it’s not like we’re living in Iran all of a sudden. I’m not seeing where anyone made the argument that we are. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/40 "2009-07-11T15:18:59Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > Also a constitutionally protected dick move. There’s no substantive difference between Congine’s protest and a dirty hippie burning the flag. There kinda is. Congine’s protest asserted the point that his liberties as an American are in distress as the result of the actions of his local government. A DFH (with a sense of symbolism) would burn the flag in protest at something the _national_ government was doing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624.md?page=3)