# Upside Down Flag Protest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624 "2009-07-11T00:50:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/81 "2009-07-12T21:07:45Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I don’t think it’s so much a “war” on Christmas a gradual erosion of what are to many, cherished principles behind the meaning of Christmas. You know, shit like WalMart telling it’s employees not to say “Merry Christmas” and all that. > > I honestly don’t know for certain what the ACLU’s position is on religious freedom other than to suggest that if it “offends someone’s sensibilities” then it must be wrong. > > No, the ACLU has never harmed me personally, and again, I am glad they exist. Maybe I will need their protection someday. > > How is the DP unfairly applied to minorites? People that committ extremely heinous crimes in a state where the DP is applicable risk being put to death, regardless of their color. > > If you’re going to talk about the past and how black people were regularly railroaded into convictions for crimes they didn’t commit just because they were black, I’m not denying that. We’ve come a long way in that regard, and institutions like the ACLU, NAACP have ensured that progression. > > As far as the Phelps family goes, I don’t think they have the right to protest at someone’s funeral in the disrespectful way that they do. I think them exercising their Constitutional rights as funeral protesters infringes on the constitutional rights of the dead servicemember’s family to have a respectful service for their loved one. Mext time you post, inform yourself first. The ACLU’s position on religious freedom is very clearly stated on their website, and exemplified by the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause cases they take. (For the record, I disagree with a few of their positions, like efforts to remove symbolicl references to religiously-based history in municipal seals and such.) And it’s a non-controversial fact that the death penalty has been applied unfairly, in a manner that discriminates against blacks, in North Carolina – liberals and conservatives, pro- and anti-death penalty, joined together to call for a state moratorium on executions. It is a demonstrable fact that blacks convicted of capital murder get the death penalty at a much higher rate than whites, apparently even crimes with the same level of heinousness. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/82 "2009-07-12T21:44:10Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Mext time you post, inform yourself first. The ACLU’s position on religious freedom is very clearly stated on their website, and exemplified by the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause cases they take. (For the record, I disagree with a few of their positions, like efforts to remove symbolicl references to religiously-based history in municipal seals and such.) > > And it’s a non-controversial fact that the death penalty has been applied unfairly, in a manner that discriminates against blacks, in North Carolina – liberals and conservatives, pro- and anti-death penalty, joined together to call for a state moratorium on executions. It is a demonstrable fact that blacks convicted of capital murder get the death penalty at a much higher rate than whites, apparently even crimes with the same level of heinousness. Well, ignorance fought and all…does that death penalty rate for blacks versus whites apply in every state in the Union that has the DP, or just in North Carolina? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/83 "2009-07-12T23:01:37Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Well, ignorance fought and all…does that death penalty rate for blacks versus whites apply in every state in the Union that has the DP, or just in North Carolina? I did mean in this state, the one place that I have read the pertinent data on. I don’t know the case elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/84 "2009-07-12T23:41:14Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I think we need criminal penalties against law enforcement who violate the 1st and 4th amendments. To quote Rudolf Rocker, “Political rights do not originate in parliaments; they are rather forced upon them from without. They do not exist because they have been legally set down on a piece of paper, but only when they have become the ingrown habit of a people, and when any attempt to impair them will meet with the violent resistance of the populace.” You can set all the criminal penalties you like and it won’t mean a tinker’s damn out on the streets where you can [get shot 41 times with impunity by the police for the “crime” of existing while black](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo). It’s about taking back our own streets. We need more copwatch programs, more people willing to step forward and question the police _when they’re actually engaged in the criminal activity_, not weeks later when the damage is already done. Giving police free rein to do as they please is the one sure-fire recipe for a police state. > [@ashman165](#): > > Allow me to translate: I’ve participated in Copwatch before, so his experience under the Canadian Constitution is informative of how things operate under the American Constitution. What does the constitution have to do with anything I described? I was writing about the behaviour of police, a psychological phenomenon irrespective of any constitution. I was affirming that I had personally witnessed such behaviour by police – and the respondent likewise affirmed that she or he had also witnessed such behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/85 "2009-07-13T01:32:19Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > To quote Rudolf Rocker, “Political rights do not originate in parliaments; they are rather forced upon them from without. They do not exist because they have been legally set down on a piece of paper, but only when they have become the ingrown habit of a people, and when any attempt to impair them will meet with the violent resistance of the populace.” > > You can set all the criminal penalties you like and it won’t mean a tinker’s damn out on the streets where you can [get shot 41 times with impunity by the police for the “crime” of existing while black](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo). It’s about taking back our own streets. We need more copwatch programs, more people willing to step forward and question the police _when they’re actually engaged in the criminal activity_, not weeks later when the damage is already done. Giving police free rein to do as they please is the one sure-fire recipe for a police state. > > What does the constitution have to do with anything I described? I was writing about the behaviour of police, a psychological phenomenon irrespective of any constitution. I was affirming that I had personally witnessed such behaviour by police – and the respondent likewise affirmed that she or he had also witnessed such behaviour. I have to say that I admire your conviction, even if I don’t generally agree with anything you say. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/86 "2009-07-13T01:46:19Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I don’t think it’s so much a “war” on Christmas a gradual erosion of what are to many, cherished principles behind the meaning of Christmas. You know, shit like WalMart telling it’s employees not to say “Merry Christmas” and all that. Cite that this has happened? And even if it has, WalMart is a PRIVATELY OWNED CORPORATION. The ACLU has no jurisdiction over WalMart’s so-called “War on Christmas.” (Hell, if they wanted to, WM could instruct their employees to say, “Fuck you!” if they so wished, and the ACLU couldn’t do jack) > [@](#): > > As far as the Phelps family goes, I don’t think they have the right to protest at someone’s funeral in the disrespectful way that they do. I think them exercising their Constitutional rights as funeral protesters infringes on the constitutional rights of the dead servicemember’s family to have a respectful service for their loved one. As long as Phelps and Co. stays on private property, and isn’t making too much of a scene (screaming, yelling, throwing things), then too bad. You do NOT have a right “not to be offended.” I don’t like them, and I wish they’d go away as well. BUT, if the law doesn’t protect them, how can I ask it to protect me as well? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/87 "2009-07-13T02:00:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Minorities are far more likely to be convicted, and are far more likely to be _wrongfully_ convicted. Then the problem is with the system, not the DP itself ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/88 "2009-07-13T02:47:08Z")
So what? ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/89 "2009-07-13T03:16:50Z")
If I were driving through a neighborhood and saw a flag upside down I’d assume that the person was being held captive in their home (or something equally bizarre\*) and trying to signal for help. Isn’t an upside down flag a universal signal for distress? I don’t think the police were justified in what they did, but I’d have asked to remove it because it would worry people unecessarily and possibly waste 911’s time answering calls. \*It’s really quite difficult to think of a scenario that would fit, but I have heard of elderly folks being held captive and their neighbors not knowing for weeks. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/90 "2009-07-13T03:25:48Z")
> [@ashman165](#): > > Allow me to translate: I’ve participated in Copwatch before, so his experience under the Canadian Constitution is informative of how things operate under the American Constitution. No, that does not resemble what I said in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/91 "2009-07-13T03:30:27Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > If I were driving through a neighborhood and saw a flag upside down I’d assume that the person was being held captive in their home (or something equally bizarre\*) and trying to signal for help. > > Isn’t an upside down flag a universal signal for distress? > > I don’t think the police were justified in what they did, but I’d have asked to remove it because it would worry people unecessarily and possibly waste 911’s time answering calls. > > \*It’s really quite difficult to think of a scenario that would fit, but I have heard of elderly folks being held captive and their neighbors not knowing for weeks. :dubious: That’s NOT what is meant by “distress signal.” Basically, an “upside-down flag” symbolizes that the NATION is in jeopardy. Not, “HELP!!! I’M BEING HELD HOSTAGE!!!” That’s why said moronic neighbor of mine is flying her’s upside-down. She had all these hard-core, “NObama!!!” “Obama is a Socialist!” signs up during the election, (nothing wrong to those who voted for McCain, peeps, just this person in particular), and then a few days after the election – BAM!!! Her flag is flying upside down. Weird. I mean, I loathed Bush, but I don’t think I’d have flown an upside-down flag when HE was in office. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/92 "2009-07-13T03:36:55Z")
Where do you get the idea that an upside-down flag only symbolizes jeopardy to the nation as a whole, rather than to any mere individual? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/93 "2009-07-13T03:42:29Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Where do you get the idea that an upside-down flag only symbolizes jeopardy to the nation as a whole, rather than to any mere individual? Because I’ve always been told that you only fly the flag upside down at times when our nation is in jeopardy, and such. Not when you need to signal someone to call the police. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/94 "2009-07-13T04:04:18Z")
See, this is what happens when you have an asymmetrical flag. I bet the Brits don’t get these problems! ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/95 "2009-07-13T04:08:14Z")
Well, you can fly the British flag mirrored, I suppose, but the effect is subtle. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/96 "2009-07-13T04:24:00Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > If I were driving through a neighborhood and saw a flag upside down I’d assume that the person was being held captive in their home (or something equally bizarre\*) and trying to signal for help. > > Isn’t an upside down flag a universal signal for distress? > > I don’t think the police were justified in what they did, but I’d have asked to remove it because it would worry people unecessarily and possibly waste 911’s time answering calls. > > \*It’s really quite difficult to think of a scenario that would fit, but I have heard of elderly folks being held captive and their neighbors not knowing for weeks. Would you really think that’s what was going on if you saw a flag flying upside down? I’d probably think it was some loonball protesting Obama. I’m having a hard time imagining someone in distress who wouldn’t be able to signal for help in any other way except digging through their closet to find the flag, going outside, and hooking it up so it flew upside down. I don’t think there would really be a flood of 911 calls by worried neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/97 "2009-07-13T05:07:42Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Because I’ve always been told that you only fly the flag upside down at times when our nation is in jeopardy, and such. Not when you need to signal someone to call the police. It was originally a distress symbol for ships at sea. It’s never had any official meaning that “the country is in jeopardy.” It means the same as “SOS.” People who say they fly it because “the country is in jeopardy” are just being figurative. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/98 "2009-07-13T05:14:16Z")
Ah, okay. Didn’t know that. So then it’s merely symbolic if you want to do it in times of war and such. Thanks, **Dio**! ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/99 "2009-07-13T06:39:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It was originally a distress symbol for ships at sea. It’s never had any official meaning that “the country is in jeopardy.” It means the same as “SOS.” People who say they fly it because “the country is in jeopardy” are just being figurative. Or not. You don’t know what they believe; and in this case, the dude seems to think that this is an example of some greater malady. The inverted flag is a sign of duress in the Army, where it can’t be rightly argued it means “save our ship”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624/100 "2009-07-13T06:52:02Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Well, you can fly the British flag mirrored, I suppose, but the effect is subtle. The Japanese, then. Or the [Scandinavians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nordiske-flag.jpg)! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upside-down-flag-protest/502624.md?page=6)