# Upskirting **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721 "2005-03-22T15:37:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![monica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@monica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monica)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/21 "2005-03-23T00:00:17Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > But think about it: why do people want to see a _particular_ person’s undies or even bare twats? And why are people so horrified that someone else might see theirs’? Again, it’s not that I don’t agree that people should have protections of privacy, whatever the reason, it’s just that the reasons seem so odd and irrational. > > I mean, let’s be honest. Human beings are not all that different “down there.” We all have legs. Half of us have vaginas where those legs join up. Sometimes we put panties over those vaginas. But the only time anyone looking up a woman’s skirt is in for a surprise is when it’s a transvestite, and even then what they see is just yet another pretty well known sight. Otherwise, it seems both odd that we are so insanely obsessed not only with seeing what’s up a skirt as well as being so nervous and worried about concealing what’s up it. I mean, I’m human, I’m male, and I too have this insane obsession. But I don’t understand it. If people wanted to see any sort of vagina or panty, or upskirt shot, they could download it for free off the internet from sites featuring women that are actually ok with showing them off. They could even find pictures of women that PRETEND not to be okay with it, if that’s their thing. So what’s all the hubbub for trying to get picture actual non-consenting women’s vaginas/panties? And why should anyone be shocked that people can see their vagina? Or penis? I can only conclude that it is a form of insanity that all of use, the watched, watching, and even the by happenstance or value unwatched, and unwatching, share. At first I thought the same thing, but then I came to the conclusion that it has something to do with not being _allowed_ to see that particular person’s undies/whatever. I think a good portion of the kick comes not from seeing the view up there (after all, internet porn has made that pretty much unneccessary), but from the rush of doing something they shouldn’t be and seeing something they shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/22 "2005-03-23T00:22:59Z")
Taking upskirt pictures should at least be a felony with subsequent registration as a sex offender after time is served. It’s an invasion of privacy and should be a criminal sex act. That will require law changes because this type of sex crime wasn’t imagined when criminal codes were first written. ---
**Author:** ![monica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@monica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monica)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/23 "2005-03-23T00:27:04Z")
> [@Machetero](#): > > Taking upskirt pictures should at least be a felony with subsequent registration as a sex offender after time is served. It’s an invasion of privacy and should be a criminal sex act. That will require law changes because this type of sex crime wasn’t imagined when criminal codes were first written. Can it fall under any sort of peeping-Tom law? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/24 "2005-03-23T00:29:10Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > I agree that the practice is twisted and cruel, though I think the remedy is to stay away from such people, not to pass laws. You can’t stay away from people who do things anonymously and without your knowledge, you have to be able to identify them to avoid them. I think you need to pass laws to discourage these people. > [@](#): > > So what’s all the hubbub for trying to get picture actual non-consenting women’s vaginas/panties? And why should anyone be shocked that people can see their vagina? **Apos** , I really don’t think this issue could be much simpler than it is. The issue is consent. If I give someone permission to see me naked and they want to do so, ta da, we’re good. If I don’t and they violate my consent (or ignore the matter by doing it in secret), they are committing a serious invasion of my privacy. Claiming that people’s hangups about sexuality are “irrational” is irrelevant. They exist and in such a limited case as this, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them. Consent is VERY important in sexual matters. The reason these pictures are not okay is the same reason it’s not okay to touch someone’s genitals without their permission or have sex with them without their permission. The physical and mental violation may be lesser in this case, but it’s still a violation. The very way in which these pictures are taken - surreptitiously, with people crouching or angling their phones under park benches and things - makes it clear that the takers of the photographs understand that they do not have permission to take them. It’s obvious that permission to see or touch someone’s genitals needs to be pretty explicit and can’t be inferred just from the fact that you might be able to see them if you go out of your way. And even if you could infer consent _to one person_ in that situation, could you infer that that implies consent to strangers viewing it on the Internet? Do we really need a court to tell us something as basically common sense as “even in a public place, people have a reasonable expectation of privacy _under their clothes_?” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/25 "2005-03-23T00:31:09Z")
> [@monica](#): > > Can it fall under any sort of peeping-Tom law? Doesn’t seem to, no. There will probably have to be specific laws passed. There are advocacy groups out there for it. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/26 "2005-03-23T00:33:08Z")
> [@monica](#): > > Can it fall under any sort of peeping-Tom law? I think that depends on how the law is written and case law in individual states. But INAL. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/27 "2005-03-23T00:39:23Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > If I have to stop wearing my kilt… > then the ‘upskirters’ have already won. But if you don’t… then the rest of us have already lost. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/28 "2005-03-23T01:04:39Z")
I think we should treat upskirting the same way we treat cell phone use in movie theators nowadays. EMP bombs. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/29 "2005-03-23T01:07:10Z")
monica: I agree that it’s pretty obvious that some of the attraction of what these people are doing is actually violating someone’s dignity, and indeed I hope I was hinting at that. But as I noted, if that was part of the aspect of what gets these people off, then there is plenty of porn available where that sort of thing is _simulated_. So what the heck is their deal? And I think that’s telling about what their deal might be: it shows that these people are beyond a simple fantasy, and actually want the reality of making the woman embarrased and or humiliated. It’s the difference between consensual S&M and REAL kidnapping and abuse. Some people get off on the former and I have no problem with it. But some people for some reason get off on the latter. And that’s pretty disturbing. > [@Marley23](#): > > You can’t stay away from people who do things anonymously and without your knowledge, you have to be able to identify them to avoid them. I think you need to pass laws to discourage these people. Maybe. But what laws? How would they work vis a vis a public space? > [@](#): > > Apos, I really don’t think this issue could be much simpler than it is. The issue is consent. I agree, but the problem is that these particular things are technically in public view, which raises some tricky legal questions. We face the same issue with cameras that can see through clothing. In effect, whatl these people are doing are using extrasensory enhancements to collect information that’s basically already “out there” in a public space, just not normally visible to the human eye alone. In the case of the X-ray cameras, the issue is harder: are we going to legislate that people not be allowed to recieve certain wavelengths of radiation? > [@](#): > > Claiming that people’s hangups about sexuality are “irrational” is irrelevant. Well, including and even primarily the hangups of the upskirters. But then, I think you are confusing three tangents I tried to keep separate. I agree that upskirters are doing a scummy thing. I’m not sure if addressing the problem with legislation is as easy as you think. And third, I’m weirded out by the whole phenomenon. > [@](#): > > Do we really need a court to tell us something as basically common sense as “even in a public place, people have a reasonable expectation of privacy under their clothes?” Yeah, we just might need that. But I think it’s a much trickier issue than it seems at first, and I’m not sure that laws against a technology, or laws against viewing, or laws against trading, are the right way to go. Convince me. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/30 "2005-03-23T01:45:35Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Maybe. But what laws? How would they work vis a vis a public space? Not very different from the reasonable expectation of privacy. You’d apply it to body parts instead of to entire people. > [@](#): > > I agree, but the problem is that these particular things are technically in public view, which raises some tricky legal questions. I think the whole “reasonable expectation of privacy” thing is pretty clear, legally. It just has not yet been applied to this kind of behavior. > [@](#): > > In effect, whatl these people are doing are using extrasensory enhancements to collect information that’s basically already “out there” in a public space, just not normally visible to the human eye alone. In the case of the X-ray cameras, the issue is harder: are we going to legislate that people not be allowed to recieve certain wavelengths of radiation? We’ve got laws about the kinds of searches that are permitted with non-visible radiation, don’t we? How about laws stating that searching or photographing someone with radiation without their consent is illegal when there’s no police investigation? > [@](#): > > Yeah, we just might need that. But I think it’s a much trickier issue than it seems at first, and I’m not sure that laws against a technology, or laws against viewing, or laws against trading, are the right way to go. I’m not sure how else you deal with these creeps; it’s this or a solution that amounts to “wear pants if you don’t want creeps to sneak up to you and shove a cell phone camera up your dress.” ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/31 "2005-03-23T02:52:19Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > Really, what does it matter if someone sees your panties? What if you’re a preoperative transsexual? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/32 "2005-03-23T02:55:07Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > What if you’re a preoperative transsexual? Oh, don’t worry. I’m sure there’s a website for men who like upskirts of preoperative transsexuals. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/33 "2005-03-23T03:31:00Z")
The key factor is a reasonable expectation of privacy. The average woman would have no reason to believe that by wearing a skirt, other people will be able to look at her vagina (pantied or otherwise) as a result. So having her vagina remain unseen is a reasonable expectation. If, on the other hand, a woman decided to drop her pants and flash the crowd during Mardi Gras, she would no longer have a reasonable expectation that her vagina would remain unseen. So while she might be upset if someone in the crowd snapped a picture and posted it on the internet without her permission, she would have no legal recourse. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/34 "2005-03-23T04:22:29Z")
Who owns your appearance? Are the lightrays public dcmain, such that while you’re standing on the subway platform any visual connoisseur has the right to stare and ogle if he (or she) thinks you look compellingly cute and sexy? Or are such glances and ogles “stolen”, in the social sense that prolonged perusal of your assets is something you license only selected people to be authorized to do, and you have legitimate cause to retaliate, verbally or otherwise, if you catch someone giving you the thrice-over in slow creepy motion? I tend towards the latter view (no pun intended) but I don’t think it’s something you can legislate. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/35 "2005-03-23T04:24:03Z")
Yes, but what about staircases or uncrossed legs? What about really short people? There are a lot of situations where between-your-legs can become visible, and we can’t legally stop someone from looking at something exposed. Your panties are exposed from a low-angle to the ground. Whats on the ground is still public, even if you don’t expect there to be people or cameras there. This just isn’t an easy thing to legislate. As a low-budget filmmaker, I’d hate to see restrictions on what sorts of angles I am allowed to use in public. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/36 "2005-03-23T04:44:37Z")
I feel it is my duty as a hetero-man to look-up the skirt or down the blouse of a woman, so long as it was an unintentional occurance. For example: A girl wearning a short skirt or a low cut blouse drops her keys on the ground and I just so happen to be looking at her at the time and consequently catch a nice view. Then all is good. However, having said that, People who actively go out and try to catch that shit on tape? I don’t know if I’d call them sicko’s but they surely are pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/37 "2005-03-23T04:50:17Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Yes, but what about staircases or uncrossed legs? What about really short people? There are a lot of situations where between-your-legs can become visible, and we can’t legally stop someone from looking at something exposed. If they’re already exposed, they would seem to fall outside the realm of a reasonable expectation of privacy. > [@](#): > > This just isn’t an easy thing to legislate. As a low-budget filmmaker, I’d hate to see restrictions on what sorts of angles I am allowed to use in public. It’s not, but I don’t see a ban on putting a camera on the ground and angling it 20 degrees. That lacks the conscious intent these jerks have. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/38 "2005-03-23T04:50:44Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Women are still expected to wear skirts to job interviews and risk losing the job if they wear pants. !!! That actually sounds plausible, more’s the pity, but still – do you have a cite? Or is this based on personal experience or “everybody knows” rumors? ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/39 "2005-03-23T05:10:36Z")
Stop wearing panties!! 😛 Wear shorts unner it!! ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/40 "2005-03-23T09:00:33Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Yes, but what about staircases or uncrossed legs? What about really short people? There are a lot of situations where between-your-legs can become visible, and we can’t legally stop someone from looking at something exposed. A brief aside: When the new airport opened here in HK a few years back, they had to completely resurface all the floors because at first they were shiny enough to reflect the view from up women’s skirts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721.md?page=3)