# Upskirting **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721 "2005-03-22T15:37:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/81 "2005-03-28T16:49:42Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Personal preparedness is a dodge. If there’s no burglar around, your TV and stereo are still there when you get home from work, no matter what you did. IT takes that thief to commit the act. There has to be the desire to commit the act and the preparation to do so. What the victim did is utterly irrelevant. I don’t see it that way. I agree with you that 100% of the blame should go onto the person committing the crime. No question. But there’d be no (or little) crime to commit if the victim would take even the barest of precautions, and I think it bears repeating, even though you feel that it’s irrelevant. But again, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/82 "2005-03-28T16:53:20Z")
> [@Chastain86](#): > > I don’t see it that way. > > I agree with you that 100% of the blame should go onto the person committing the crime. No question. But there’d be no (or little) crime to commit if the victim would take even the barest of precautions, and I think it bears repeating, even though you feel that it’s irrelevant. > > But again, YMMV. That amounts to saying that the victim’s actions influenced the thief’s. It lessens their responsibility and increases the victim’s when the act was wholly their own. It makes their decision partly the fault of the victim. It’s a great excuse. Unless the victim forces the thief in some way, then the thief has to bear responsibility for their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/83 "2005-03-28T17:08:17Z")
I agree. I take what notions I feel are necessary to safeguard myself and my belongings, but I still think all this “preparedness” shit is pure blame the victim. That dog won’t hunt. My mileage varies. A lot. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/84 "2005-03-28T17:16:35Z")
> [@Chastain86](#): > > I don’t know that you can have it both ways, though. No, no, I’m pretty sure you can. If I may hijack your analogy, unless you’ve left your house in your underwear, the door is locked. People can break in to your house no matter what you put around it, but we don’t go around telling burglary victims “See, that’s what you get for living in a house. I live in a concrete-encolsed titanium vault sixteen feet underground, and if you don’t want people taking your things, you should do the same.” ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/85 "2005-03-28T17:20:21Z")
> [@spingears](#): > > Dopers are supposed to be dispelling ignorance, not disseminating it. > You mean “vulva” not “vagina,” do you not? I came in here to make this point, as well, you beat me to it. If there’s a shot up someone’s skirt of her _vagina_, there’s something wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/86 "2005-03-28T17:26:32Z")
> [@Chastain86](#): > > You don’t fault the guy for leaving his doors unlocked and having his TV stolen any more than you fault the woman for not wearing panties and being upskirted. But it does raise the question if personal preparedness for a situation might eliminate a lot of the concerns. I don’t understand this analogy at all. If I go around not wearing panties, say, _but no one knows_, you’re saying it’s my fault if someone gets a shot of me? I could see maybe if I were advertising the fact, but no one knows! That being said, I don’t think up-skirt shots are a big deal, but I think you are getting dangerously close to saying women shouldn’t wear skirts and have a dress code all the time. Actually you are saying a dress code, “women should wear panties at all times when wearing skirts”. ---
**Author:** ![Chastain86](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Chastain86](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chastain86)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/87 "2005-03-28T17:28:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, no, I’m pretty sure you can. If I may hijack your analogy, unless you’ve left your house in your underwear, the door is locked. People can break in to your house no matter what you put around it, but we don’t go around telling burglary victims “See, that’s what you get for living in a house. I live in a concrete-encolsed titanium vault sixteen feet underground, and if you don’t want people taking your things, you should do the same.” But wait a second. I never said underwear would stop the practice of upskirting, because it won’t. Men will still try to see things that they shouldn’t try to see. Underpants won’t stop it from happening any more than a locked door will stop a determined thief. Someone that’s determined to commit a crime won’t be deterred by a locked door, underpants, or locked underpants. However, underpants will prevent the crime from being worsened. It will deter the simple looky-loos and the like, which I’d wager make up a lot of the “criminal element” committing this crime. Much like a locked door will prevent the casual thief from breaking into your home. But hey. I’m male, not into upskirting, and possessing of no horse in this race. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/88 "2005-03-28T17:29:51Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I came in here to make this point, as well, you beat me to it. > > If there’s a shot up someone’s skirt of her _vagina_, there’s something wrong. Now \*\*that’s \*\* a zoom lens! Couldn’t resist… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/89 "2005-03-28T17:34:32Z")
> [@Chastain86](#): > > However, underpants will prevent the crime from being worsened. It will deter the simple looky-loos and the like, which I’d wager make up a lot of the “criminal element” committing this crime. Much like a locked door will prevent the casual thief from breaking into your home. I don’t care. It’s not even remotely similar to my home. I shouldn’t have to conform to somebody’s idea of a dress code because there are some lunatics out there. We need to deter the lunatics, not the people. And to be honest, it’s just not on the same level ass robbery. Someone catches an upskirt sans panties and they’re titilated but nothing’s actually been taken from the girl, 99% of the time they don’t even know about it. Someone steals from you, well, you’ve lost something tangible. I’m just saying, not only should I not have to wear panties if I don’t want to, it’s not even important enough for me to care about it. **CandidGamera** , that was a pretty good one. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/90 "2005-03-28T18:10:28Z")
> [@Chastain86](#): > > However, underpants will prevent the crime from being worsened. It will deter the simple looky-loos and the like, which I’d wager make up a lot of the “criminal element” committing this crime. Much like a locked door will prevent the casual thief from breaking into your home. We’re not just talking about ‘casual thieves’ here, and upskirting doesn’t just happen to women not wearing underpants. At most, maybe you’re right and it wouldn’t seem as bad. It’d still be taking place. You’re right that this is going to happen anyway, but we don’t rely on locks alone to keep burglars out of our houses, we also have police as a deterrant and for when that fails. If we had no police and only security systems, we’d have a lot more robbery. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/91 "2005-03-28T18:33:26Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > We need to deter the lunatics, not the people. And to be honest, it’s just not on the same level **ass robbery**. Remember, kids, wear your underpants, or bad men will _steal your ass_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/92 "2005-03-28T18:55:20Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Remember, kids, wear your underpants, or bad men will _steal your ass_. shutupshutupshutup ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/93 "2005-03-28T19:51:52Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > shutupshutupshutup Can’t help it. It’s in my nature to be cheeky. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/94 "2005-03-28T19:55:15Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Can’t help it. It’s in my nature to be cheeky. _groan_ This is _GD_, Mr. Punny, supposed to be _serious_. And your puns make baby Jesus cry. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/95 "2005-03-28T20:10:59Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > _groan_ > > This is _GD_, Mr. Punny, supposed to be _serious_. And your puns make baby Jesus cry. Hon, you’re talkin to the guy who posted in this forum in-character as the Mighty Gamm-Ra, potential emperor of the United States. I caught up with Gamm-Ra recently, and he had this to say on the topic - > [@Mighty Gamm-Ra](#): > > Gamm-Ra does not believe in upskirting, because Gamm-Ra does not believe in skirts! Much of the clothing of the modern age should be eliminated. Loincloths all around! ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/96 "2005-03-29T00:03:33Z")
> [@Mighty Gamm-Ra](#): > > Gamm-Ra does not believe in upskirting, because Gamm-Ra does not believe in skirts! Much of the clothing of the modern age should be eliminated. Loincloths all around! :eek: There are some people I definitely wouldn’t care for in loincloths!! One of them would be a strange turtle monster, definitely. But he’s right, upskirting would be a thing of the past. People would \*don \* skirts and take pictures and sell them, because it would be wanted so bad. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/97 "2005-03-29T01:17:24Z")
> [@seosamh](#): > > For general amusement, from today’s (London) _Daily Telegraph_: > > “ **TV PUNDIT WAS PEEPING TOM** - A Japanese economist and TV pundit was fined 500,000 yen (£2,500) yesterday for using a mirror to peek under a 15-year-old girl’s skirt and get a look at her underwear on the escalator of a Tokyo train station. Kazuhide Ueskusa, 44, lost his post as a professor at Waseda niversity after the incident in April 2004. - AFP, Tokyo” You beat me to this incident. This has been a concern in Japan for a long time (I guess camera phones caught on faster here), and as a result, cell phone cameras are required to make noise when they shoot. The sound can’t be shut off. Regular digital cameras, however, carry no such restriction, and have been miniaturized to the point where they can easily be concealed in one hand. In both the Uekusa case and [this case in yesterday’s news of a policeman doing the same thing](http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20050328p2a00m0dm002000c.html), they were charged with being a public nuisance. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/98 "2005-03-29T20:58:52Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > As a woman, it doesn’t really bother me-- it’s one of those perspective things. After all, the Peeping Tom isn’t seeing anything you wouldn’t be revealing on a beach. Really, what does it matter if someone sees your panties? Agreed readily. I must say, the only time I have sat on South Beach in Miami ( notable for sections that are topless beach areas ), I was very very very very to the fiftieth degree aware of three ladies nearby who sat down, pulled off their t shirs and untied their bikini tops and laid back in their chairs. I couldn’t not look. I’m sorry, but it was a mesmerizingly sensuous sight. Now, we’re talking in public, in plain sight on a beach. I glanced. I did not gape, gaze, stare, oggle or obsess. In return for my glances, I was favored with the most incredibly icy " and what the fuck are **you** starting at, asshole??? " look from one of the young ladies. That was it, I kept my eyes elsewhere. This is America, where most public bathing beaches are not topless. And I got a really angry glare. I felt pretty guilty for looking. And yet… Tough call. If I caught someone eyeing my 13 yea old on the beach this summer, I’d be pretty angry- she’s just asked to buy her first bikini. The entire upskirt thing seems exceedingly skeevy to me and an outright invasion of privacy. For those men who don’t see it as such, would you mind terribly walking around with skintight jockey shorts on in the street and nothing else? If so, fine. If not, then upskirts may be a wee bit more objectionable than you say they are. Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/99 "2005-03-29T21:21:02Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > For those men who don’t see it as such, would you mind terribly walking around with skintight jockey shorts on in the street and nothing else? If so, fine. If not, then upskirts may be a wee bit more objectionable than you say they are. > > Cartooniverse I am also willing to kill cows for food, or so I tell vegetarian preachers who talk to me about the hypocracy of eating meat if you aren’t willing to kill animals. ---
**Author:** ![AZCowboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/97f17d/32.png) [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2005, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721/100 "2005-03-30T00:07:40Z")
I can understand all the “ickiness” associated with the reactions to upskirting here. What I can’t quite come to understand is the call for some sort of legal action. IANAL, but my understanding is that your “right to privacy” (loosely defined), pretty much stops as you cross the threshold of your house (with few exceptions, like hotel rooms). If you expose something, intentional or not, in public, I don’t think you should have any legal (criminal) recourse. If the upskirter then uses your image without permission in a commercial manner, perhaps you have a civil claim… If you are concerned with being upskirted, wear shorts under your skirts, or don’t wear skirts at all. While it may seem to violate your privacy, I doubt you could find a (US) court to agree. The analogy of the TV in the house fails to work specifically because it was in your house, where you do have a legal presumption that others shouldn’t be trespassing. Set your TV on a streetcorner for an hour and then come back. If it is missing, just try to call the police and explain how your TV was stolen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upskirting/295721.md?page=6)