# "Upstate New York" What does it mean to you? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 20, 2007, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681 "2007-12-20T06:17:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/61 "2007-12-20T16:43:34Z")
[QUOTE=Billdo] Upstate/Downstate is a bilateral division. Sure you can further divide upstate into Western New York, Northern New York, the Hudson Valley, the Southern Tier, the Finger Lakes or whatever, but it’s all upstate. [/QUOTE] That is the correct answer. **Downstate** - anyplace within the NYC sphere of influence: print and broadcast media, culture, accents and so on. Includes NYC and Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, Orange, Sullivan and Ulster counties. **Upstate** - everyplace outside of the NYC sphere of influence: lackluster economy, NYC not considered the nearest “big city”, more of a New England-ish or Midwestern feel, no NYC accent (strong nasal Chicago/Detroit-like accent in the Buffalo and Rochester area). As **Billdo** said, Upstate can be divided into various regions and subregions, which may or may not overlap. For instance: Town of Amherst \< Northtowns \< Niagara Frontier \< Western New York \< Upstate Village of East Aurora \< Southtowns \< Niagara Frontier \< Western New York \< Upstate Perinton \< Rochester Eastern Suburbs \< Finger Lakes \< Western New York \< Upstate Jamestown \< Southern Tier \< Western New York \< Upstate ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/62 "2007-12-20T16:58:42Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] Didn’t even know there was a 4-H camp in Canandaigua, [/QUOTE] Yep. And now they have a [website](http://www.4hcampsny.org/bristol_hills/summer.html). Wow. Taking the virtual tour really takes me back. Clicking on various pictures brings back memories of smells, oddly enough. The mold of the cabins, the chlorine of the pool, the yeast of the main lodge. This is like freaky nostalgia. Holy shit. ---
**Author:** ![THespos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@THespos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THespos)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/63 "2007-12-20T17:09:28Z")
I’m with **Billdo** on this one. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/64 "2007-12-20T17:15:40Z")
[QUOTE=Waverly] The problem is that New York is not so much a state, as a collection of people who might not belong on the same planet as let alone the same country. Buffalo – Is clearly in Canada. It is Toronto’s little sister city. Rochester – Is a decaying suburb with no city to go along with it. Suburb of what? I dunno. Binghamton, Elmira, et. al. – There is nothing in the southerntier that is vaguely New York. I think this is outer Pennsyltucky. Syracuse – IS central NY. Long Island – Is an island nation that just happens to use the US dollar and a language loosely related to English. [/QUOTE] Nice summary, I like this one. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/65 "2007-12-20T17:21:44Z")
I grew up in Kingston, two hours north of NYC, on the Hudson. I consider that upstate since the NYTimes would list movies in our area as upstate. But the conversation usually goes Where are you from? Upstate New York. Oh, anywhere near Rochester/Syracuse/Schenectady…? So I changed it to Where are you from? Kingston,NY,it’sabouttwohoursnorthoftheCity. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/66 "2007-12-20T17:24:08Z")
Upstate New York starts around Poughkeepsie. Between that and NYC are outer-tier suburbs. In a similar vein, southern New Jersey is that area between Elizabeth and whatever is down there at the tip, Cape May or some such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/67 "2007-12-20T17:45:07Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] I do, however, miss Smitty’s, Country Sweet, and other such Chicken a Ribs places. I’ve gone so far as to order Smitty;s Sauce long distance. Smitty’s is gone, but you can still get Boss Sauce by the case. [/QUOTE] Man, I am so going to Wegmans and getting some Boss Sauce now! [QUOTE=Waverly] Rochester – Is a decaying suburb with no city to go along with it. Suburb of what? I dunno. [/QUOTE] Cute, but that doesn’t really describe Rochester in the slightest. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/68 "2007-12-20T17:46:17Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] Upstate New York starts around Poughkeepsie. Between that and NYC are outer-tier suburbs. In a similar vein, southern New Jersey is that area between Elizabeth and whatever is down there at the tip, Cape May or some such thing. [/QUOTE] I think of the split as the Raritan River, then we have Central Jersey and then Southern Jersey. Elizabeth is a little too far North as the Tip of Staten Island is opposite Perth Amboy. If you like you can shift all of Middlesex to Central Jersey and us Rahway as the southern most town of North Jersey. Central Jersey is tricky as it would be part or all of Middlesex country, all of Monmouth County, Mercer County and Part of Ocean County. Somerset could be North or Central depending on point of view. To me it is North Jersey. In can be argued that Central Jersey grows towards the south as Suburban sprawl creeps south and the North Jersey expands southward as Middlesex urbanizes. Jim ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/69 "2007-12-20T18:09:32Z")
For me it means anything North of NYC. Not everything except NYC, since that would imply that Long Island is upstate which is silly. This is in fact correct, despite protestations from the OP. However, I must point out that those poor deluded fools who believe that Queens is not part of Long Island are in fact, wrong. There is no magical River separating Queens from Nassau County, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/70 "2007-12-20T18:24:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I think of the split as the Raritan River, then we have Central Jersey and then Southern Jersey. Elizabeth is a little too far North as the Tip of Staten Island is opposite Perth Amboy. If you like you can shift all of Middlesex to Central Jersey and us Rahway as the southern most town of North Jersey. > > Central Jersey is tricky as it would be part or all of Middlesex country, all of Monmouth County, Mercer County and Part of Ocean County. Somerset could be North or Central depending on point of view. To me it is North Jersey. > > In can be argued that Central Jersey grows towards the south as Suburban sprawl creeps south and the North Jersey expands southward as Middlesex urbanizes. > > Jim I’ll agree with this, rather than **jackmanni** ’s assertion. Elizabeth is way too far north to define the boundary of "Southern Jersey. But the Raritan isn’t the natural dividing line – Route 1 and the Jersey Turnpike arguably are. But Central Jersey (where I grew up) has a distinctively different feel from the hilly and high-income North as well as from the Pine Barren-and\_Ocean South. It’s the land of orchards, dairy farms, Rutgers, Princeton, and pre-Revolutionary War stuff. ---
**Author:** ![mikemo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/41988e/32.png) [@mikemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikemo)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/71 "2007-12-20T19:11:46Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] The boundary I’ve always used is I-84. Anything south of that, in NYS, is downstate, and anything north or west of that line is upstate. [/QUOTE] As a non-New Yorker, that boundary was about the way I understood it too. I seem to remember conversations in college where the (implied) boundary was closer to the Tappan Zee bridge, though! I never quite understood it, though…for me, north of Albany would make sense as “upstate,” maybe as far west as Syracuse. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/72 "2007-12-20T19:21:40Z")
[QUOTE=Justin\_Bailey] Cute, but that doesn’t really describe Rochester in the slightest. [/QUOTE] C’mon, it’s less populated than Suffolk County, is just barely larger than Buffalo’s largest suburb, Amherst, and liberally borrows from Buffalo and Syracuse to complement it’s anemic identity. It’s a sprawling suburb in need of a city to take it in. And I’m talking about something other than Rochester’s own “downtown”. Both blocks of it. ---
**Author:** ![sugar\_and\_spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@sugar\_and\_spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugar_and_spice)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/73 "2007-12-20T19:32:51Z")
I happen to know a retired Geography professor, 30 years in the SUNY system – just emailed for his definition, he agrees with **Billdo** ’s ‘bilateral division’: > [@](#): > > I consider it to be the Hudson Valley, Adirondacks, the Ithaca-Cornell Elmira area, the Southern Tier and Western NY. In NYC, it would be anything beyond the city commuting range. Some might put the Catskills in Upstate New York but I would not. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/74 "2007-12-20T19:32:53Z")
[QUOTE=elmwood] That is the correct answer. **Downstate** - anyplace within the NYC sphere of influence: print and broadcast media, culture, accents and so on. Includes NYC and Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, Orange, Sullivan and Ulster counties. **Upstate** - everyplace outside of the NYC sphere of influence: lackluster economy, NYC not considered the nearest “big city”, more of a New England-ish or Midwestern feel, no NYC accent (strong nasal Chicago/Detroit-like accent in the Buffalo and Rochester area). [/quote] I’ll buy that. I had several Rochester area classmates at the U of Michigan who were just about indistinguishable from native Michiganders in speech, dress, tolerance for wintry conditions, etc. The Downstate students there were a tighter and actually less diverse group. UofM was a fallback school for children of status-seeking New Yorkers. Probably still is. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/75 "2007-12-20T19:35:57Z")
I’m from Queens, so anything north of Yonkers was upstate to me. I never really put Buffalo in that category, though, so I don’t think I would have considered it and Rochester upstate. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/76 "2007-12-20T19:37:24Z")
> [@](#): > > C’mon, it’s less populated than Suffolk County, is just barely larger than Buffalo’s largest suburb, Amherst, and liberally borrows from Buffalo and Syracuse to complement it’s anemic identity. It’s a sprawling suburb in need of a city to take it in. And I’m talking about something other than Rochester’s own “downtown”. Both blocks of it. I knew a grad student at Rochester who said he used to stand at the corner of Main and Clinton and ask people Where Downtown Was. And this was before Sibley closed its downtown store. But, as much as I love to put Rochester down, I have to defend on this point – its downtown is longer than two blocks. _Buffalo_’s downtown is the one that’s only two blocks long. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/77 "2007-12-20T20:10:08Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] _Buffalo_’s downtown is the one that’s only two blocks long. [/QUOTE] Sorry, but I have to correct you. Downtown Buffalo is about 20 blocks long. It’s two blocks _wide_. It’s one of North America’s most linear central business districts. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/78 "2007-12-20T21:17:59Z")
When I was briefly looking for jobs in the Rochester area I had to walk a couple block from where I parked to the convention center. Then I had to walk a couple blocks in another direction to meet my Dad. I couldn’t have coincidentally walked across the entire scope of Rochester! Now, for downtowns that really are two blocks square – Ithaca NY comes to mind. And Orlando has a tiny-seeming downtown versus metropolitan area population even though it would probably be one of the larger downtowns if it were in the Rust Belt. But Rochester never seemed to have a very small downtown versus suburban size. In fact, just looking at a map, it seems like the least remarkable settlement pattern possible: a decent but not big section of tall buildings downtown, a decent but not big section of urban area that is not tall buildings, a decent but not big section of suburbs, gradually fading into sparsely populated rural places. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/79 "2007-12-20T21:25:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Sorry, but I have to correct you. Downtown Buffalo is about 20 blocks long. It’s two blocks wide. It’s one of North America’s most linear central business districts. It’s been a long time since I was there, but I swear that we drove through it in two blocks. And I’m sure it wasn’t crosswise. Maybe it’s filled out some since. Rochester definitely has more downtown than two blocks. Especially if you count Monroe Avenue, and the Eastman School, and the University Art Museum, and the Margaret Strong Museum, and the Rochester Museum and Science Center/Strasenburg Planetarium. No way would I consider that stuff “suburbs” Dammit, you’ve got me defending Rochester! And I hate the place! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681/80 "2007-12-20T22:46:16Z")
All of NY State except the greater NYC metro area and Long Island. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/upstate-new-york-what-does-it-mean-to-you/430681.md?page=5)