# Urgent spelling ? for experts: Possessive form of "Homeless" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 8, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774 "2009-05-08T18:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/1 "2009-05-08T18:49:40Z")
I’m writing a cover letter to an organization with the word “Homeless” in its title. What would the possessive form of this be? Say the organization is called “Programs for the Homeless.” Should it be: _Programs for the Homeless’ advocacy throughout the state has helped…_ or _Programs for the Homeless’s advocacy throughout the state has helped…_ My instinct as an editor tells me the latter is correct. (And let’s say that the sentence can’t be rephrased to avoid the possessive construct.) Any thoughts here? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/2 "2009-05-08T18:53:24Z")
The latter is correct, IMO. OTOH, It would be better to say, “Advocacy programs for the homeless…” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/3 "2009-05-08T18:59:52Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > The latter is correct, IMO. OTOH, It would be better to say, “Advocacy programs for the homeless…” Actually, if I’m reading that correctly, the agency is called something similar to “Programs for the Homeless”. The best way to show possession in that case would be to recast the sentence. > [@](#): > > The advocacy of Programs For The Homeless throughout the state has helped… ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/4 "2009-05-08T19:05:48Z")
Thanks gents. Right now I’m working on the premise that the sentence cannot be recast, unfortunately. I usually prefer to avoid this kinda stuff when possible, but in this situation recasting the sentence makes things even worse. And yes, **jayjay** is correct. The organization name is (something like) **Programs for the Homeless** or **Help the Homeless** , along those lines. So far we’re all in favor of **Homeless’s** , assuming the sentence stands as-is. Anyone disagree with the consensus here? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/5 "2009-05-08T19:09:04Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Thanks gents. Right now I’m working on the premise that the sentence cannot be recast, unfortunately. I usually prefer to avoid this kinda stuff when possible, but in this situation recasting the sentence makes things even worse. Ugh…I hate being painted into a corner grammatically. My condolences on the situation. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/6 "2009-05-08T19:22:14Z")
Heh. Thanks, **jayjay**. Yeah, sometimes the higher ups make things more difficult than necessary. Well, I found an article that indicates that the NYTimes uses “Homeless’s” in such a scenario, so that gives me a good styleguide to use just in case I get questioned on this later. In an article about an org called Picture the Homeless: > [@New York Times](#): > > The other day, over Sun Chips in Picture the Homeless’s office, Mr. Harris and his colleagues reviewed footage for their next production. And also, from 1995: > [@New York Times](#): > > The actress Olympia Dukakis presided at the Coalition for the Homeless’s benefit, at Kenny’s Steak House on the East Side, and people attending the Volunteers of America’s benefit in SoHo tasted the creations of a dozen chefs and wineries. …And now I want some Sun Chips and steak. (Shouldn’t’ve skipped lunch today.) Thanks for the backup, guys! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/7 "2009-05-08T19:53:53Z")
I agree … Homeless’s ---
**Author:** ![Scarlett67](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scarlett67/32/7387_2.png) [@Scarlett67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarlett67)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/8 "2009-05-08T21:22:33Z")
Chicago style would also call for Homeless’s (though it would also prefer that you recast). ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/9 "2009-05-08T21:39:03Z")
Yep, this isn’t a right or wrong answer under spelling/grammar – it’s going to depend on your style manual of choice. The one I use (from long ago school days) would call in all cases for “ss’s’.” With style, main thing is to pick a regimen and be consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/10 "2009-05-09T03:42:39Z")
> [@](#): > > **Huerta88** : The one I use (from long ago school days) would call in all cases for “ss’s’.” I’ve never seen a word that required more than one apostrophe to show possession. Follow the same rule as for _mass_. The mass’s cries could be heard at a distance. What style manual were you using in your school days? Most students rely on textbooks or (later) reference books rather than style manuals. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/11 "2009-05-09T05:53:22Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I’ve never seen a word that required more than one apostrophe to show possession. > > Follow the same rule as for _mass_. The mass’s cries could be heard at a distance. I believe that sentence should be _The masses’ cries…_, surely? As in “huddled masses,” except requiring the possessive as an add-on? Unless you’re talking about a sentient mass crying out in pain, like the Blob or something. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/12 "2009-05-09T06:07:28Z")
I think either is “correct.” More people would probably be comfortable with the extra “s” present, but I was taught with no “s” in situations like that. So, go with everyone else? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/13 "2009-05-09T14:20:08Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > The one I use (from long ago school days) would call in all cases for “ss’s’.” Agree with Zoe. Never. Never. Never. ---
**Author:** ![Thin\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@Thin\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thin_Ice)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/14 "2009-05-09T14:50:29Z")
Originally Posted by New York Times “…and people attending the Volunteers of America’s benefit in SoHo tasted the creations of a dozen chefs and wineries.” Cool. At least they’re emulating the homeless who also taste the creations of a dozen chefs while dumpster diving behind restaurants, and are intimately familiar with the products of various wineries. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/15 "2009-05-09T16:46:13Z")
I believe that these are correct: _Programs for the Homeless_\*'s\*\* advocacy throughout the state has helped…\* _Programs for the Homeless_\*’\*\* support throughout the state has helped…\* Stringing too many sibilants together results in a hissing noise, which is frowned upon. If your cover letter later requires that the possessive be followed by a noun beginning with an “s” sound, use only the apostrophe. _Dickens’ stories_ is a popular example. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/16 "2009-05-09T18:34:10Z")
> [@SoulFrost](#): > > Stringing too many sibilants together results in a hissing noise, which is frowned upon. Frowned upon by whom? Certainly not my style guide. > [@](#): > > If your cover letter later requires that the possessive be followed by a noun beginning with an “s” sound, use only the apostrophe. _Dickens’ stories_ is a popular example. This might be one way of handling this matter, but it’s by no means universal. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/17 "2009-05-10T03:00:24Z")
According to most sources I use. As it’s a matter of style, of course it isn’t universal. A few cites: [Webster’s New World punctuation](http://books.google.com/books?id=YyMoNCZlUAwC&pg=PA173&lpg=PA173&dq=%22style+guide%22+%22possessive%22+%22apostrophe%22+%22begins+with+an+s%22&source=bl&ots=2LubMuuHWO&sig=cptV99Hyn8xe11o7uTTFQkI1H7M&hl=en&ei=bUAGSuCgN9eJtgeY49WZBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3) [Dictionary.com](http://dictionary1.classic.reference.com/writing/styleguide/punctuation.html) My tattered _Practical English Handbook (Seventh Edition)_: > [@](#): > > NOTE: When a singular noun ending in s is followed by a word beginning with s, use only the apostrophe, not 's. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/18 "2009-05-10T03:54:45Z")
These are the exceptions that I mentioned. You can add just the apostrophe when the word has more than one syllable – _but not if you are going to be pronouncing the second s or z sound._ The best examples that I can think of are names: Jesus’ robe, Brutus’ sword, the Beatles’ recording. One source for this rule is **Harbrace**. I haven’t checked their online site, but I’ve used my first copy since 1961. Some might disagree even with these because they might be inclined to say “Je-sus-es robe” and “Bru-tus-es sword” when they should not have the extra syllable attached. I don’t think too many people are in danger of saying “the Beatles-es’ recording.” **choie** , either _mass_ or _masses_ can be used. (I think that _masses_ does sound better, but it wouldn’t have illustrated my point.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/19 "2009-05-10T13:46:30Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > The best examples that I can think of are names: Jesus’ robe, Brutus’ sword, the Beatles’ recording. > > … > > Some might disagree even with these because they might be inclined to say “Je-sus-es robe” and “Bru-tus-es sword” when they should not have the extra syllable attached. > > I don’t think too many people are in danger of saying “the Beatles-es’ recording.” Your examples are not parallel. _Jesus_ and _Brutus_ are singular, so the _'s_ is a perfectly valid way of making a possessive. And when you do use that method, you pronounce the _'s_. _Beatles_ is plural, so it follows the rule for plural possessives: apostrophe only. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2009, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774/20 "2009-05-10T14:01:08Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Frowned upon by whom? Certainly not my style guide. AP Style has this quirk. In that stylebook it’s “waitress’s dress” but “waitress’ seat” because of the “s.” Personally, I think it’s a stupid guideline. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/urgent-spelling-for-experts-possessive-form-of-homeless/495774.md?page=2)