# US-Americans, I Pit you! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 4, 2020, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745 "2020-11-04T13:49:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/101 "2020-11-05T13:57:01Z")
I proposed education in #7, but I got the answer that “they” control the education boards, nothing can be done there. I would add getting rid of Rupert Murdoch and the Fox Network. Probably can’t be done either, right? The First Ammendment lets anyone say whatever they want, be it true or false, even false on purpose (aka: lying). Pretty soon the only non violent option left will be blaming the victim. Not edifying, not constructive, but at least it gives you the impression of having been right all along. Or we just give it up. It’s impossible to change anything. I believe they would be very happy if we gave up. So I do what I can: I rant and draw mean pictures. I hope it is better than nothing. PS: thanks, **asahi** , I do wonder indeed along those lines. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/102 "2020-11-05T14:01:28Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, but you do have to make a choice at some point as to what your priorities are. If you are willing to accept fascism in order to impose your will upon others, then you are embracing it. [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhO6jfHPFQU) is a Youtube video comparing three single-winner voting systems, Plurality, Instant Runoff, and Approval, showing the strengths and flaws of all three. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/103 "2020-11-05T14:36:15Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I don’t see PL’s post as blaming those who worked hard so much as wondering why the fuck there are so many Americans who could vote for someone who is so obviously unfit for office. But, that’s exactly what he did: > [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I Pit you all, one half of you for voting for this monster, _the other half for letting it happen._ > [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I proposed education in #7, but I got the answer that “they” control the education boards, nothing can be done there. It’s not that they control the education boards, it is that each state has its own education curriculum. I can’t do anything more about what they teach in Alabama than you can do about what they teach in Poland. > [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I would add getting rid of Rupert Murdoch and the Fox Network. Probably can’t be done either, right? Pretty much, yeah. Downside of having freedom of speech. > [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > The First Ammendment lets anyone say whatever they want, be it true or false, even false on purpose (aka: lying). That’s what is says, alright. The alternative would be having the government decide what is true and false. I’m not sure that would be better. > [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > Pretty soon the only non violent option left will be blaming the victim. Not edifying, not constructive, but at least it gives you the impression of having been right all along. I’m not sure I understand why you would say this. Who is the victim, and who is blaming them? > [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > Or we just give it up. It’s impossible to change anything. I believe they would be very happy if we gave up. No, we keep fighting. We win some, we lose some. Hopefully, sanity wins over delusion, love wins over hate. Or maybe we lose. We wouldn’t be the first country or society in this world to fail. > [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > So I do what I can: I rant and draw mean pictures. I hope it is better than nothing. It could be, but I’m not convinced that your OP or follow-up have been. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/104 "2020-11-05T14:46:24Z")
Well, yes, I fell into the trap of blaming the victim. Not nice, I suppose it shows both the flaws in my character and my helplesness. It feels good for a while, but not for long. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/105 "2020-11-05T14:51:47Z")
I personally don’t take offense to anything PL has said. I, too, am disgusted with the half that voted for this pile of shit, and for the fact that the rest of us couldn’t talk them out of it. I think we Americans get offended too easily. If we were not Americans, we’d have very similar feelings of disgust and exasperation with Americans. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/106 "2020-11-05T14:57:28Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > > [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > > > I proposed education in #7, but I got the answer that “they” control the education boards, nothing can be done there. > > It’s not that they control the education boards, it is that each state has its own education curriculum. I can’t do anything more about what they teach in Alabama than you can do about what they teach in Poland. I think it’s both, and _definitely_ the former. I don’t mean to present this as any semblance of a definitive treatise, but it was the first result from my Google search, explains my basic premise, and is a good jumping-off point for others interested in the subject: > **[Conservative school board revolution: Column](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/09/25/school-board-curriculum-conservative-history-column/16159795/)** > > Rewriting history presents a threat to the future of American public education. While I haven’t said there’s ‘nothing to be done’ in any of this, I have presented challenges that are mounting and formidable. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/107 "2020-11-05T14:57:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s not that they control the education boards, it is that each state has its own education curriculum. I can’t do anything more about what they teach in Alabama than you can do about what they teach in Poland. In Germany the Länder (Federal States) are responsible for education, including the curriculum. But there is a gremium (the Bildungsministerkonferenz) where they agree on some minimum standards. Some Länder then go to have more religion, for instance, others have less. Same with languages, maths &c. But the common base is large enough and whatever wars are fought there are fought mainly on good faith (so far…). In the EU there is also some degree of agreement, with another body (the Council of Ministers for Education) that tries to set minimum standards. Working groups with experts (go figure), religious autorities, sociologists and what not prepare those meetings, the process can be long and intrincate. The argument goes that this allows pupils from any school in Europe to study in any University in Europe without having to sit for an additional exam. This is a developing process, the Germans do it since the 50s, Europe started much later, but the incentive (Erasmus Programmes, automatic convalidation of school and university degrees etc.) are strong enough to progress. So yes, I can, albeit very obliquely, influence Poland’s schools. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/108 "2020-11-05T15:00:36Z")
The problem we have is, education is political. We have well-organized, politically motivated concerns that/who use the schools to press an agenda. This is why we _elect_ school board officials at the local level, and many times these are individuals who have no background whatsoever in educational leadership. They’re just concerned parents and/or activists who want little Bubba to believe that the world is only 6000 years old. And these are the little American Ayatollahs that flourish in Trump Land and hold the rest of the nation, and the world, hostage. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/109 "2020-11-05T15:01:37Z")
I don’t know the US system well enough, so please tell me: would it be possible for a university to tell the pupils of those schools that with this schooling they may not study at their institution? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/110 "2020-11-05T15:02:22Z")
“Democracy is the worst form of government save for every other kind that has been tried.” -Winston Churchill ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/111 "2020-11-05T15:05:12Z")
That’s a really good question – my WAG to that would be that any school that takes public (ie, Federal) money wouldn’t have that flexibility, but that private colleges and universities quite likely would. We lean heavily on standardized testing for college admissions. Learning that the world is flat and isn’t even as old as your dad doesn’t guarantee poor performance on standardized testing. Though maybe it should. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/112 "2020-11-05T15:09:35Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I personally don’t take offense to anything PL has said. I, too, am disgusted with the half that voted for this pile of shit, and for the fact that the rest of us couldn’t talk them out of it. > > I think we Americans get offended too easily. If we were not Americans, we’d have very similar feelings of disgust and exasperation with Americans. Speaking just for myself, I don’t have feelings of disgust and exasperation with Hungarians who voted _against_ Fidesz, or UKers who voted _against_ Brexit, or Filipinos who voted _against_ Rodrigo Duterte, or…or…or. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/113 "2020-11-05T15:10:50Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > and for the fact that the rest of us couldn’t talk them out of it. You can’t reason someone out of a position that they did not reason themselves into. Their position is based on hatred and/or delusion. Maybe we can take advantage of this, and use hatred and lies to our advantage, but I don’t know that that would work, and if it did, where does that leave us? > [@asahi](#): > > If we were not Americans, we’d have very similar feelings of disgust and exasperation with Americans. I only have feelings of disgust and exasperation with those who voted for Trump. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > While I haven’t said there’s ‘nothing to be done’ in any of this, I have presented challenges that are mounting and formidable. I will say that at least part of the problem is that Democrats tend to come out and vote for a presidential candidate that excites them, and Republicans tend to come out to vote whenever the polls are open. School board elections are usually in odd years, when there is much greater Republican turnout than Democratic. I personally have voted in almost every election I was legible to vote in since I was 20. How to get others to the polls to ensure that our schools are not taken over by theocrats is a good question. I always say that politics is local. You should turn out to vote for your mayor, your township trustees, your city council, your judges, **and** your school board. And while you are there, if it happens to come up, voice your opinion on federal issues like president as well. I have done the work of making this philosophy click with a number of my Democratic friends, but living in Trumplandia as I do, those are few and far between. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/114 "2020-11-05T15:14:17Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I will say that at least part of the problem is that Democrats tend to come out and vote for a presidential candidate that excites them, and Republicans tend to come out to vote whenever the polls are open. One problem with bumper-sticker philosophy [NB: NOT yours] is that it’s too easily dismissed, even when it actually **is** sage and important. Democrats tend to fall in love. Republicans tend to fall in line. Word. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/115 "2020-11-05T15:16:20Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > In Germany the Länder (Federal States) are responsible for education, including the curriculum. But there is a gremium (the Bildungsministerkonferenz) where they agree on some minimum standards. They tried something like this in the US. It was called “[URL= [Common Core - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core_State_Standards_Initiative)]Common Core[/URL]”, and the standard was very bare-bones, covering only math and literacy. And, of course, there was loud opposition, because, reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/116 "2020-11-05T15:16:52Z")
If you can study anything, for instance geology, believing that the world is flat I cannot but wonder what they ask in those standarized tests. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/117 "2020-11-05T15:24:49Z")
In the U.S., to enter college, you don’t take a “geology” test, you take a general knowledge test - among other considerations. And you can’t fail the general knowledge test by getting a single question wrong, no matter how basic it is. And even Young Earth Creationists know what they’re “supposed” to answer on secular tests. Beyond that, though, if the goal is to provide a quality, fact-and science-based education to as much of the population as possible, preventing the very people who have had a poor education from getting a better one in a different setting seems like a very curious policy. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/118 "2020-11-05T15:28:32Z")
Brexit isn’t the same as voting for Trump; it would be like us voting against NAFTA. I get how voting against EU membership happens. The Philippines have never been among the stablest of democracies, whereas we were born a democracy. I’m not trying to trash us, but I get why people in countries that have similar values can look at the US and wonder ‘WTF is wrong with you?!’ ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/119 "2020-11-05T15:29:24Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > So yes, I can, albeit very obliquely, influence Poland’s schools. That’s better than here. Technically, states don’t even have to provide _any_ form of public education. They do, for the most part, but they don’t have to. They are completely in charge of what standards they hold their students and educators to. > [@asahi](#): > > They’re just concerned parents and/or activists who want little Bubba to believe that the world is only 6000 years old. And that the worst day here in 'Murica is better than the best day anywhere else. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/hsxukOPEdgg/maxresdefault.jpg "U.S. History: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsxukOPEdgg&t=1524) > [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I don’t know the US system well enough, so please tell me: would it be possible for a university to tell the pupils of those schools that with this schooling they may not study at their institution? Sure, they can. A university can have admission standards. But State Universities have their standards set by the state, and private ones can set whatever they want. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745/120 "2020-11-05T15:45:33Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I don’t know the US system well enough, so please tell me: would it be possible for a university to tell the pupils of those schools that with this schooling they may not study at their institution? Universities can set their own admissions policies. Private universities can reject anyone they want. Public universities can’t discriminate, for example, against women or minorities or national origin or religion. Generally, high schools have to hew to state standards and meet accreditation standards. A university will accept a diploma from any accredited high school. I don’t think universities are going to investigate the curricula of every single high school. And a university of, for example, the State of Texas is certainly not going to say that “no diploma from a State of Texas-accredited high school is accepted.” The real problem is not school education. It’s the education that kids get from their families and peers and from the media. That’s what is fucked up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-americans-i-pit-you/924745.md?page=7)