# US arming Sunni dissidents **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2007, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688 "2007-06-12T09:51:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/1 "2007-06-12T09:51:53Z")
Good idea or total lunacy? For me this is a practically rhetorical question but maybe there is an up side I’m not seeing. [Risky bid](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2100698,00.html) > [@](#): > > The US military has embarked on a new and risky strategy in Iraq by arming Sunni insurgents in the hope that they will tackle the extremist al-Qaida in Iraq. > The US high command this month gave permission to its officers on the ground to negotiate arms deals with local leaders. Arms, ammunition, body armour and other equipment, as well as cash, pick-up trucks and fuel, have already been handed over in return for promises to turn on al-Qaida and not attack US troops. > > The US military in Baghdad is trying to portray the move as arming disenchanted Sunnis who are rising up in their neighbourhoods against their former allies, al-Qaida and its foreign fighters. But the reality on the ground is more complex, with little sign that the US will be able to control the weapons once they are handed over. The danger is that the insurgents could use these weapons against American troops or in the civil conflict against Shia Muslims. > > \ > > The arming of the Sunni insurgents reflects US unhappiness with the slow progress of the Iraqi army, which it suspects of being too close to the Shia militias, and with the police, which is even more riddled with sectarianism. At a press conference, Gen Lynch said he was concerned about corruption within Iraq’s police force and by interference from the national government in security issues, particularly in the release of suspected insurgents held by Iraqi security forces. ‘Thanks for the guns Infidel. Of course we wouldn’t even begin to think about dreaming of using them for anything other than what you tell us.’ (Insert requisite number of roll-eyes here). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/2 "2007-06-12T11:09:03Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Good idea or total lunacy? [/QUOTE] Lunacy. Of course any weapons we give out will either be used against us, or against other Iraqis. Al Qaeda is our crusade, not theirs, and the Iraqis know we are their enemies. As for this : > [@](#): > > The US military has embarked on a new and risky strategy in Iraq by arming Sunni insurgents in the **hope that they will tackle the extremist al-Qaida in Iraq.** If they want to get rid of Al Qaeda, just leave. Al Qaeda will either leave with us, keep it’s head way down, or get turned into hamburger by the Iraqis - they already have enough weapons to do that, and won’t have any reason to tolerate Al Qaeda once we are gone. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/3 "2007-06-12T11:15:28Z")
Didn’t they try this strategy about 20 years ago, arming Afghani warlords so that they could go fight the Russians? Look how well _that_ turned out ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/4 "2007-06-12T11:19:57Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Al Qaeda is our crusade, not theirs [/QUOTE] Not if the local AQ franchise in Iraq is using indiscriminate tactics that kill civilians in an effort to stoke the civil war fires. They have pissed off people who are otherwise quite happy to see them slaughtering the Occupation forces. But you are broadly correct IMHO. Once the AQ problem is solved by force, or more likely a practical shift in AQ tactics and a rebuilding of ‘enemy of my enemy’ alliances any weapons we give will be turned against the occupying forces. This tactic smacks of short-sighted desperation. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/5 "2007-06-12T11:29:18Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Not if the local AQ franchise in Iraq is using indiscriminate tactics that kill civilians in an effort to stoke the civil war fires. They have pissed off people who are otherwise quite happy to see them slaughtering the Occupation forces. [/QUOTE] What I meant is that while I’m sure they’ll cheerfully kill off Al Qaeda types for things like that, it’s way down on their priority list. Give the typical Iraqi a gun with two bullets, and an American and an Al Qaeda, and I’d expect them to shoot the American twice. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/6 "2007-06-12T11:30:31Z")
[QUOTE=Aspidistra] Didn’t they try this strategy about 20 years ago, arming Afghani warlords so that they could go fight the Russians? Look how well _that_ turned out [/QUOTE] Well it at least worked as far as it’s original purpose, and while Afganistan hasn’t done well since, I don’t know how much of that is due to the fact that we gave them some weapons back in the 80’s. But really, who looked at the situation in Iraq and said to themselves: “these people could really use some more guns”. The Sunni insurgents seem pretty adaquately armed without our help. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/7 "2007-06-12T11:34:54Z")
Let me get this straight… the main problem in Iraq right now is sectarian violence, so the solution this folks came up with is to give arms to one of the warring factions? I request an illegal substance test to all involved on the creation of this abortion of a solution. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/8 "2007-06-12T12:24:34Z")
This is strictly a booze idea. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/9 "2007-06-12T12:59:35Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] Well it at least worked as far as it’s original purpose, and while Afganistan hasn’t done well since, I don’t know how much of that is due to the fact that we gave them some weapons back in the 80’s. But really, who looked at the situation in Iraq and said to themselves: “these people could really use some more guns”. The Sunni insurgents seem pretty adaquately armed without our help. [/QUOTE] ‘These people could really use some more guns, ammo, body armour and transportation.’ Can I take it, as we are now supplying the insurgency with body armour, our own troops have enough of same? And I’m a bit worried. I’m not sure the insurgents have enough main battle tanks. Boy, could they kick some Al-Q ass with a few Abrams. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/10 "2007-06-12T13:00:46Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] What I meant is that while I’m sure they’ll cheerfully kill off Al Qaeda types for things like that, it’s way down on their priority list. Give the typical Iraqi a gun with two bullets, and an American and an Al Qaeda, and I’d expect them to shoot the American twice. [/QUOTE] I’m sure you are right. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/11 "2007-06-12T13:16:57Z")
Meh. I don’t know. I think half the starting problem, tactically, not morally, is that we didn’t choose sides to start with. If we’d picked a side, armed the hell out of them, and encouraged them to start with, we’d have fewer random problems now. … of course, we’d probably have ethnic cleansing, which is a different issue. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/12 "2007-06-12T13:39:23Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Meh. I don’t know. I think half the starting problem, tactically, not morally, is that we didn’t choose sides to start with. If we’d picked a side, armed the hell out of them, and encouraged them to start with, we’d have fewer random problems now. … of course, we’d probably have ethnic cleansing, which is a different issue. [/QUOTE] The Sunni were Saddam’s boys and girls. Overthrowing a Sunni regime to arm the Sunni side in the ensuing and inevitable civil war would seem a tad silly, even by the low standards set by the current Mal-Administration. We should have armed the Christians and called the policy something snappy and redolent with history. If only it had been known beforehand that there were different forms of Islam and that two of them were in Iraq. But hindsight is such a wonderful thing. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/13 "2007-06-12T14:00:29Z")
The focus on al-Qaida both in the media and (supposedly, it may be a public act) in high military circles is quite depressing to me. If every foreign fighter in Iraq disappeared overnight we’d still be drowning in the quicksand that is Iraq. Al-Qaida should be around number 15 on our priority list. We should be more concerned about a whole host of other issues and focused on the other 80% or so of the Iraqi population who wants us dead.\* I’m also sorta surprised we simply haven’t taken a ruthless strategy of fully siding with the Shia. War crimes? C’mon, we crossed that Rubicon as a country a long time ago, and I’m not even talking about Iraq. Besides, the rationalizing for internal consumption is easy (don’cha know they’re evil Saddamists who hate freedom). There’s less Sunni, so they’re easier to purge to boot. And during the process we could attempt to woo the Shia to our side to make up for the end of the Gulf War. Then we can mostly withdraw and leave 40K troops for the next 50 years for our “vital national interest.” It’s still totally evil of course, but it’s competent evil. Incompetent evil is just embarrassing. If I’m going to be a citizen of an empire who snatches up countries whenever it wants I’d like it to be _efficient_ at the very least. - - I’m just curious, for any military historian out there, has there ever been a conflict in the industrial age where the local population hates an occupier as much as the Iraqis hate us and then, somehow, it’s reversed to where they love the occupiers? Or at least tolerate them? I know of no such case. The whole idea seems like trying to get toothpaste back into the tube. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/14 "2007-06-12T15:07:15Z")
The problem, **marshmallow** , with what you propose – purely on pragmatic grounds; let’s not go near the moral and ethical ones – is that it would require honesty: the ability of those in power to look honestly at the naked brutal truth about what they do, and why. I don’t doubt that a majority of those running our empire have convinced themselves that, however distasteful the means, the ends are good and noble and patriotic, and thus whatever consequences flow from their decisions are no reflection on their moral and ethical worth as human beings. To pursue the competent evil, they would have to admit to themselves that they’re just power-grabbing, wealth-grabbing imperialists. The ancient Romans didn’t blink at that reality, and did a bang-up job of it. Our modern leadership can’t admit, even to themselves, the truth of what they do, so they choose half-measures and policy follies to paper over the raw ugliness with a facade of high principle. That’s how I see it, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/15 "2007-06-12T15:13:47Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Mal-Administration. [/QUOTE] Isn’t it more like the Jayne-Administration? ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/16 "2007-06-12T15:26:06Z")
Probably. He got all the Canton votes. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/17 "2007-06-12T15:27:36Z")
The irony (but for the whole Saddam/Ba’athist thingy) is that the Sunni were probably closer to our natural allies than the Shi’a ever were. Of course, by taking the Sunni out of power and basically putting them under the majority rule (with all the ugly implications that entails) that ship has probably already sailed at this point. -XT ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/18 "2007-06-12T15:48:52Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] Isn’t it more like the Jayne-Administration? [/QUOTE] I’ll be in my bunk. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/19 "2007-06-12T17:44:58Z")
Well, it’s a load of bunk somehow… ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688/20 "2007-06-12T18:26:27Z")
Eh, it’s a two-part plan, really. They’re hoping they’ll go after AQ (and like everyone else here I’m sure that’ll go SO well) and maybe it’ll help the Sunnis make the inevitable ethnic cleansing just that little bit more difficult for the Shi’ia. -Joe [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-arming-sunni-dissidents/407688.md?page=2)