# US Army Mutiny in Iraq - Soldiers refuse to drive death convoy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 17, 2004, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656 "2004-10-17T11:01:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/21 "2004-10-18T19:10:18Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Well if I send you in a civilian car through dowtown Sadr city with a big sign saying “Shi’ites like to suck \*\*\*\*”… its plausible that you would survive such a “mission”… and by your criteria it wouldn’t be a suicide mission ? > > ``` > When people take pot shots with RPGs I wouldn't consider it a minor incident... > > ``` Colorful, but irelevant. It was not a “suicide” mission. It may have been dangerous, made even more by the fact that their equipment sucked, but the mission itself sounded pretty standard. They weren’t being asked to infiltrate Osamas inner circle or anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/22 "2004-10-18T19:31:41Z")
Why don’t you go carry out the mission yourself then, **msmith**? You’re awfully courageous with other people’s lives. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/23 "2004-10-18T19:33:08Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not a military lawyer, but I believe there’s some distinction between “insubordination,” which might involve disobeying your officers, and “mutiny,” which might involve shooting your officers. Here you go, bolding mine. > [@](#): > > § 894. Art. 94. Mutiny or sedition > > Release date: 2004-03-18 > > (a) Any person subject to this chapter who— > (1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, **refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty** or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny; > (2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or other disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition; > (3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition. > (b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct. Basically if a group refuse an order its mutiny. If its an individual its another crime. > [@](#): > > § 892. Art. 92. Failure to obey order or regulation > > Release date: 2004-03-18 > > Any person subject to this chapter who— > (1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation; > (2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or > (3) is derelict in the performance of his duties; > shall be punished as a court-martial may direct. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/24 "2004-10-18T19:33:41Z")
I support these soldiers 100%, btw. They have the right to say no to a suicide mission. Why does Bush hate the troops so much? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/25 "2004-10-18T19:43:09Z")
I don’t think he micro manages so much that he is ordering individual supply missions. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/26 "2004-10-18T19:47:54Z")
He’s responsible for their lack of equipment and armor. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/27 "2004-10-18T20:02:44Z")
If they wanted armor they should have become tank crewmen. There are no armored fuel trucks. Never have been. Thats not Bush’s fault. Any armor that might be there now was slapped on by the troops in the field. They might be able to slightly protect the cab from small arms but not the fuel they are hauling. Its a crucial mission that has inherent dangers. Failure to deliver supplies may endanger the lives of others. From the days of the Redball Express the Transportation Corps has taken pride in getting the supplies through to the troops no matter what the danger. The reasons that this unit gives better be a damn sight more compeling than what I have heard for me to feel any sympathy for them. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/28 "2004-10-18T20:04:49Z")
**Oh Cynical One:** Given the convoluted nature of the military procurement process, laying the blame for lack of armor for supply & logistics vehicles at Bush’s feet is kind of disingenuous at best. The fact that the mission was succesfully carried out by other members of the same platoon without incident or casualties mitigates against calling it a “suicide mission.” ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/29 "2004-10-18T20:28:48Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > If they wanted armor they should have become tank crewmen. There are no armored fuel trucks. Never have been. What about the gun trucks that were used for convoy escort in Vietnam? [http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi\_m0LEG/is\_2002\_Sept-Oct/ai\_93348673](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LEG/is_2002_Sept-Oct/ai_93348673) ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/30 "2004-10-18T20:32:09Z")
They have similar things in Iraq. They also use M1s, Bradleys and Apaches for escort duty. I was talking about the supply trucks themselves, not the escort vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/31 "2004-10-18T20:36:27Z")
I don’t know; I realize that the Army needs to have different rules from othr organizations to operate effectively, but if I had been ordered to work for months with obviously sub-par equipment for months just because of the unit that I worked in and that after completeing one mission, my cargo had been refused as worthless due to contamination, and then I was told the next day to go back out and risk my life all over again to accomplish the exact same fucking thing, I might find the actions of these reservists reasonable. It’s one thing to risk one’s life to proivde life-saving resources to your fellow soldiers; an entirely different thing to have some desk-jockey tell you to go do a dangerous but above all pointless mission without the benefit of an escort that would typically be involved in such a mission. Officers have a deadly serious responsibility to make sure that they risk the lives of their soldiers intelligently, and if what the reservists say about the fuel being contaminated and unusable is true, then the officers should bear punishment, but as we’ve seen with Abu Gharib, “shit rolls downhill.” ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/32 "2004-10-18T20:45:10Z")
The “contaminated fuel” was refuted by BG Chambers, CO of 13th COSCOM, the “big” unit the 343 Quartermaster Company belonged to. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/33 "2004-10-18T20:51:24Z")
Fuel that is contaminated by aviation standards can still be used in tanks. That might be where there may be some confusion. And yes I have been Aviation and Armor. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/34 "2004-10-18T21:05:10Z")
**Loach:** > [@](#): > > And yes I have been Aviation and Armor. Ditto. Just under 6 years 19K Active Army, just over 2 years 67U Army Reserve. It occurs to me that soldiers who didn’t want to go “into the bush” could have easily opened the lids on the gas tankers and poured in…whatever… to contaminate the fuel. **threemae:** > [@](#): > > I don’t know; I realize that the Army needs to have different rules from othr organizations to operate effectively, but if I had been ordered to work for months with obviously sub-par equipment for months just because of the unit that I worked in and that after completeing one mission, my cargo had been refused as worthless due to contamination, and then I was told the next day to go back out and risk my life all over again to accomplish the exact same fucking thing, I might find the actions of these reservists reasonable. With only a little work, you could be completely incomprehensible. All I read in that was , “If, if, if,…” > [@](#): > > It’s one thing to risk one’s life to proivde life-saving resources to your fellow soldiers; an entirely different thing to have some desk-jockey tell you to go do a dangerous but above all pointless mission without the benefit of an escort that would typically be involved in such a mission. Unit missions typically originate in the S-3 shop, which is usually run by officers who had just completed a company command. Hardly “desk jockeys.” Show that the mission was pointless and un-escorted. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/35 "2004-10-18T21:13:43Z")
I went the other way, 93B to OCS to Armor. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/36 "2004-10-18T21:40:22Z")
I was in a similar situation, as a civilian, during the LA riots. I was a driver for a company and my boss wanted me to drive into downtown LA in the midst of the riots. There was a little bit of riot activity near where I normally work, and a lot more between where I was and downtown LA. Ordinarily I only had to go into downtown LA once a week or less. On this day I refused to drive down there, telling my boss I didn’t think it was safe. He got very agitated, telling me that it was up to him to decide whether or not it was safe enough for me to drive into downtown LA in the midst of rioting. I was prepared to quit over the situation, but he gave in and let me wait another day. Now, Reginald Denny was pulled out of the cab of a tractor trailer and pummelled within an inch of his life during the riots (not in downtown, though). I was a young, attractive woman driving a much smaller vehicle than a tractor trailer. Personally, I think my boss never gave a moment’s thought to my safety when he ordered me to drive down there. And I still think I did the right thing. Happily, I was not a soldier at the time, so I had an option. It was not a suicide mission, but it was a case of my boss being cavalier about my safety. Just like this reserve unit case. And it should never happen. Soldiers aren’t disposable. So we shouldn’t call it a “suicide mission.” Can we still call it a “death convoy”? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/37 "2004-10-18T21:54:17Z")
**bluethree:** it is only a “death convoy” if the allegations of the soldiers are founded in fact, and not their supposition of the danger. Considering the mission was accomplished that same day, by vehicles from the same unit, without incident and with no casualties, mitigates against the “mutinous” soldier’s take on the situation. The maintenance stand-down isn’t necessarily to repair defective vehicles; it could very well be to investigate and determine the unit’s vehicle maintenance status. If they are found to be Fully Mission Capable for the mission which those soldiers refused, expect to see some court-martials for the ring-leaders, and possibly Field Grade Article 15s for their followers. If they are found to be in sub-standard maintenance condition, and Not Mission Capable for the mission in question, then expect to see some letters of reprimand for the officers, and some Field Grade Article 15s for the soldiers. NOT for declining the mission, but for going outside military channels. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/38 "2004-10-19T03:52:01Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Why don’t you go carry out the mission yourself then, **msmith**? > > You’re awfully courageous with other people’s lives. Oh ok…I’ll go enlist tomorrow and drive a freakin truck around the desert. :wally :rolleyes: :dubious: > [@bluethree](#): > > Happily, I was not a soldier at the time, so I had an option. Right. You and I are not soldiers, firemen or cops. We do not have the expectation that we should risk our lives in the carrying out of our job. We have the luxury of not showing up to work if our car knocks and pings or we’re sick or our vagina just hurts too much. Soldiers, on the other hand, do have that expectation that they may have to put their lives in jepardy to complete their mission. They may not have the latest and greatest weaponry and equipment and must make due. You don’t hear the insurgents crying because their RPGs are a little out of date. Let me put it another way. What if there was a mechanized battalion that deperatly needed that fuel for an operation it was involved in? Should those soldiers have risked driving less than top notch trucks to complete that mission? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/39 "2004-10-19T04:01:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Oh ok…I’ll go enlist tomorrow and drive a freakin truck around the desert. :wally :rolleyes: :dubious: The Wally smilie is considered flaming and is forbidden in GD. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656/40 "2004-10-19T04:06:03Z")
Well, that’s one way of putting it. Another would be why is it that the richest and most powerful nation in human history sends its troops into battle with second rate equipment? I didn’t want this turd fight to go forward in the first place. But if they’re going to insist on it, the _very least_ they could do is do it right! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-army-mutiny-in-iraq-soldiers-refuse-to-drive-death-convoy/269656.md?page=3)