# US assassinates commanding general of Iran Quds force **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2020, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821 "2020-01-03T02:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/201 "2020-01-04T04:20:25Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Would you care to take a bet on whether you are right? Sure, what did you have in mind ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/202 "2020-01-04T04:38:00Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Trying to understand middle eastern politics in terms of western politics is doomed. It just doesn’t work that way, and trying to apply ideas of how the US relates to any of this in terms internal conflicts similarly doomed. > > One of the big problems is that those things we call countries in the Middle East are recent inventions imposed from the outside, in a large part by the English after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire after WW1. Drawing nice straight lines on maps to carve up control of areas taking no notice of pre-exiting communities, ethic groups, or what were effectively individual countries that had existed for thousands of years. Of course this didn’t end well. > > Persia, now Iran, was a dominant empire that spread across much of the land, and at one point included the good bits of what is now Saudi Arabia. This however was before Islam existed. Things go back that far. Islam was imposed on the Persians by the Arabians, during which time the Arabians tried to snuff out the Persian language and other culture. Memories are long, and the current enmity between Iran and much of the rest of the Middles East goes back to times when Europe was a forest and the Americas may well have been on another planet. > > Iraq is only 100 years old and is make up of three separate components of the Ottoman Empire. Welding these three together was never going to end well. > It isn’t just problems with Iraq. The current mess in Libya is just the same story playing out. Libya is less than 70 years old, and exists mostly as accidents of history as the spoils of war after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, welding together 2 separate countries and ethnicities. It isn’t hard to guess what the two sides of the current Libyan conflict are. India versus Pakistan is of course the poster child for this problem. > > Minimally, any way of trying to understand what is playing out must recognise that the borders we in the West draw on maps have only some influence over what is playing out on the ground. Often they are one of the key causes of the conflict. Every time a new border is imposed on the land and a new ruler placed over it (usually propped up by the West), there is simply yet another player in the power games, not fewer. There are historical interests that go back millennia, and the upstart interests created by the West. What we get shown in the West are the conflicts drawn in terms of those upstart interests, and recent definitions of countries. This is naive at best. Where the West gets it badly wrong is in thinking that these new country definitions are the only divisions that matter. Or using local conflicts as a proxy for other interests. Iran versus the the rest is as much about Persian versus Arab, and has existed for about 3 times as long as the USA has. Sunni versus Shiite is part of this conflict, but not the whole story either. > > The Ottoman Empire may be gone, but its heart - Turkey - still wields influence, and it still holds onto parts of the historical empire, albeit bits that were carved by by another Brit with a pencil and a ruler. They play to their own interests, and this gets us the same set of unresolvable conflicts. Kurdistan, Macedonia, etc. > > This isn’t a one side versus the other problem, which how the West mostly seems to play it. There are multiple competing interests and unreconcilable problems. Thanks for this consice yet detailed summary of the history. I knew of the arbitrary boundries drawn up after WWI and the difficulties that caused and the Sunni/Shite conflicts, did not know this went all the way back to Persia. But I think you last line there is the key -\* multiple competing interests and unreconcilable problems \* The Sunnis and Shites are not going to sit down over a cup of coffee and agree to get along. And the US is sure as hell not going to help in any way. Our government, certainly the current one but past ones as well, don’t understand the region and the people and the history. So I propose another thread - what should our policy in the Middle East be? Not specifically in regards to this particular incident, but in general. Now and for the next ten years. I wonder if you would want to create such a thread, outlining the possibilities in broad strokes as you have a more extensive knowledge of the region. BTW I love your line about Europe being a forest and that the Americas may as well have been on another planet. Reminds me of a line in Lawrence of Arabia - "We had lighting in the streets when London was a village. " ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/203 "2020-01-04T04:44:45Z")
Don’t want to start a whole thread so I hope you all don’t mind a minor digression - can anyone point me to a recent white paper or in-depth article that summarizes the current political/social situation in Iraq in particular and/or the ME in general? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/204 "2020-01-04T04:47:40Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > They are a serious threat to kill and maim a significant number of U.S. and Allied forces if we foolishly choose to invade for… reasons. There is absolutely ZERO reason the U.S. would invade Iran. It would be 10x the quagmire of post-2003 Iraq. It would give Elizabeth Warren a 500-electoral vote victory over Trump in November. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Mabes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mike_mabes/32/1782_2.png) [@Mike\_Mabes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Mabes)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/205 "2020-01-04T04:54:25Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > I hope you can find the source for this because I have heard that too (on this board courtesy of another poster) and I think it adds the perfect element of comedy to this tragedy. Only Trump could fuck it up like this, trying to hit some foot soldiers and accidentally glassing a senior general from next door. And since Trump isn’t capable of admitting fault as you noted, he’s going to clusterfuck his way into an actual war. You can’t blame it soley on Trump, the hawks in the military I’m sure had a lot to do with this. The last people in the room with him. But I am now a bit reassured, I just read that in Mar-A-Lago, Trump was spotted with his advisors the day of the attack. One was Jared Kushner, his advisor on the Middle East. We’ll be OK! Nobody knows more about the Middle East than Kushner, other than, of course, Donald Trump. Jared Kushner couldn’t give competant advice about the mid-eastern side of Manhattan. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/206 "2020-01-04T05:30:03Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There is absolutely ZERO reason the U.S. would invade Iran. It would be 10x the quagmire of post-2003 Iraq. It would give Elizabeth Warren a 500-electoral vote victory over Trump in November. Except that Loser Donald has surrounded himself with the same cabal of neocon hawks who’ve been champing at the bit for an excuse to invade Iran for _decades_, and they know how to manipulate him into doing it. All they have to do is fill his head with “Wars like this are easy to win” and “Obama never had the courage to invade Iran”. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/207 "2020-01-04T05:30:26Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I have a legit question. Given that Qud is a well-organized, deeply entrenched organization, how would taking out Soleimani be a pre-emptive strike? Qud has already named his successor, and if the planned attacks against US military personnel, etc., were already in place, how would Soleimani’s death pre-empt anything? I’m trying to understand the reasoning. Having plans–even well-thought-out plans–is one thing. Competently executing them is an entirely different kettle of fish. I strongly suspect that Quds does not have anybody of sufficient caliber to execute those plans as well as Soleimani could have done. If so, then taking him out makes as least tactical sense, because the damage under anybody else would not be as severe as under Soleimani himself. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/208 "2020-01-04T05:32:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There is absolutely ZERO reason the U.S. would invade Iran. It would be 10x the quagmire of post-2003 Iraq. It would give Elizabeth Warren a 500-electoral vote victory over Trump in November. Just because it’s stupid doesn’t mean Trump won’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/209 "2020-01-04T05:34:03Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > No explosions overnight. No smoke from the refinery this morning. So far so good. Retire now! ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/210 "2020-01-04T05:44:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am listening to Trump saying the name “Sollamainee” over and over again. Is this the correct pronunciation? No. It’s more like “Suul lah mah nee“. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/211 "2020-01-04T05:49:59Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > No. > It’s more like “Suul lah mah nee“. What I suspect is that he is trying to make it rhyme with “Khomeini”. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/212 "2020-01-04T06:54:29Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Under most rules of war _I_ can think of, bumping someone off while in a state of peace is called “murder”. And since when is Iran an adversary ? Or Iraq a fucking active war zone ? Against whom ? When has that ever stopped the last umpteen Presidents? ---
**Author:** ![MarvinKitFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MarvinKitFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarvinKitFox)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/213 "2020-01-04T07:14:03Z")
How exactly is this not terrorism? It’s just as bad as if the Iran government planted a bomb in Heathrow airport, to kill Mike Pompeo and his entourage during a state visit to the UK. I boggle at how anyone can justify a military strike on a foreign leader, in a civilian setting, in a country that neither the attacker not the victim belongs to. It fits _so_ _many_ of the markers of international terrorism? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/214 "2020-01-04T07:21:21Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > When has that ever stopped the last umpteen Presidents? Not the point. Somebody talks raw uncut bollocks, I’m going to call him on it, there’s nothing more to it than that. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/215 "2020-01-04T07:34:34Z")
Spit-balling here like the rest. I see major miscalculations on all sides. Iran looking to extend its influence in Iraq/Middle East by ousting US personnel thru an escalating campaign against installations throughout the country. Demonstrated by attacks on US/allied bases recently resulting in the death of a US contractor and multiple severe injuries to military personnel. Followed by an orchestrated attack/demonstration at the US Embassy. Anyone thinking this incident wasn’t planned is sadly naive. Their thought was probably that Trump is all hair - no cattle [to coin a phrase] [See North Korea negotiations]. And weakened by impeachment rumblings. Iraq needed/still needs both US troops/personnel and Iranian forces against ISIS and other insurgents. Different factions in the government dealt with the respective allies/clients with little coordination. Very weak central government being pushed/pulled by external nation states and an ongoing terror campaign. Plan for the future? What? We (US) are really touchy about embassies; Iran hawks in Trump’s ear were dropping Benghazi Benghazi warnings and we must do something. Maybe we got the wrong guy? Doesn’t matter, no time stone in real life. I just don’t see any planning going on based on our actions. Human life doesn’t figure into responses from many of the actors in the region. It’s going to get bloody and last for another decade at least [yes, yes, wildly optimistic]. Kurds are still screwed. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/216 "2020-01-04T07:47:08Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > For those interested in the Sunni/Shia conflict, Frontline released an amazing doc exploring the history and intensity of this conflict. > > [FRONTLINE | Bitter Rivals: Iran and Saudi Arabia (Part One) | Season 2018 | Episode 3 | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/video/bitter-rivals-iran-and-saudi-arabia-pqsnhk/) > > [FRONTLINE | Bitter Rivals: Iran and Saudi Arabia (Part Two) | Season 2018 | Episode 4 | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/video/bitter-rivals-iran-and-saudi-arabia-part-two-ka4dlm/) > [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Don’t want to start a whole thread so I hope you all don’t mind a minor digression - can anyone point me to a recent white paper or in-depth article that summarizes the current political/social situation in Iraq in particular and/or the ME in general? Thanks. These two Frontline programs from early in the post are a good start. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/217 "2020-01-04T08:59:45Z")
After thinking about it, my sense is that while there will be a series of reprisals and counter-reprisals, full-scale war is unlikely. Why? Simply because of the incentives for both parties. The Iranian regime is in a tight spot both economically and with domestic protests. They don’t need a full-scale war with a superpower though they probably don’t mind a cycle of limited attacks which will help them rally domestic opinion. In the US I think Trump’s instincts are, correctly IMO, that a full-scale war will not help him politically. He would prefer to go into the election with a decent economy and a country at peace. Of course he will still try to claim credit for this operation as a great triumph, his version of the OBL operation. Ultimately for both sides are best served by a limited confrontation well short of full-scale war. Of course things might spiral out of control but my bet is that limited confrontation is what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/218 "2020-01-04T09:07:43Z")
> [@MarvinKitFox](#): > > How exactly is this not terrorism? Well, yeah, I’d say it looks an awful lot like that, except the US nationalists will never believe that they themselves could be terrorists because in their minds they’re the good guys no matter what. This sort of assassination is something that we’d be roundly condemning if done by any other nation. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/219 "2020-01-04T09:37:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Well, yeah, I’d say it looks an awful lot like that, except the US nationalists will never believe that they themselves could be terrorists because in their minds they’re the good guys no matter what. > > This sort of assassination is something that we’d be roundly condemning if done by any other nation. It’s one of those irregular verbs - I’m a patriot, you’re a resistant/freedom fighter, he’s a terrorist… we’re mass murderers. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821/220 "2020-01-04T11:59:13Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Your criteria seem a bit absurd- are we to believe that a “win” is only accomplished if we conquer and subjugate the enemy nation such that there’s no insurgency or resistance, a-la post WW2 Germany? Would you call WWI a loss because we were fighting the same guys 20 years later? > […] It has been argued that WWI and WWII were one single conflict interrupted by a 21 year truce. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-assassinates-commanding-general-of-iran-quds-force/845821.md?page=12)