# US ATM cards in Europe: codes too long? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 18, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583 "2009-04-18T23:19:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![asrivkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9d8465/32.png) [@asrivkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asrivkin)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/21 "2009-04-21T14:13:15Z")
I admit I’m still finding this hard to believe. (Not that I don’t believe all of the posters, of course.) If I wanted to try my cell phone overseas, I can go to the Verizon Wireless page and click on the country I’m going to, and know whether it’ll work given my plan and the phone I have. Yet there’s no official bank web site that I’ve come across that says anything like “Our bank requires 4 digit PINs” or “Make sure to change your PIN to 4 digits when you go overseas”. Is the fraction of people who have 5+ digit PINs and then go overseas so small it doesn’t make a bank FAQ? (That may be a rhetorical question…) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/22 "2009-04-21T15:04:14Z")
I’ve seen that advice in travel books. Plus, it may not be your own bank that’s the problem, but the bank that runs the ATM in the foreign country. It likely caters mainly to its own clients, so sees no need to put up a FAQ (possibly in a foreign language) to assist foreign tourists. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/23 "2009-04-21T15:38:18Z")
And since your bank is in America, they may not be aware that other countries exist or have ATMs and such. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![smoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@smoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smoke)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/24 "2009-04-21T16:08:03Z")
Call your bank with this. When I travelled to Europe a few years ago, I was told that in these situations, you can just type in the first (or last?) four digits of your regular PIN when you’re at an ATM that only accepts 4 digits. Whichever it was, it worked fine. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/25 "2009-04-21T18:36:10Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > You only need the PIN if you’re using a credit card that has a [chip](http://www.rbcroyalbank.com/cards/chip/works.html) in it, like mine. Cards that use magstripes and have no chips, as US ones do, will continue to use signatures. The stores will very likely refuse such cards, as the risk is then [legally] transferred from the card company to them. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/26 "2009-04-21T19:01:52Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > The stores will very likely refuse such cards, as the risk is then [legally] transferred from the card company to them. I’ve used my plain vanilla US bank and credit cards in Britain with nary a problem even post-advent of “chip n’ pin”. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/27 "2009-04-21T21:13:53Z")
> [@carlb](#): > > That didn’t seem to be the case in February. None of my credit cards have chips, but they were still refused at a number of locations when I couldn’t supply a PIN. Merchants are required to take foreign cards without PINs: > [@](#): > > Many countries in the EU have recently migrated to chip and PIN technology, which means that those countries will require that all domestic Visa transactions be completed with a PIN instead of a signature. This change in technology is part of an effort to minimize lost and stolen card fraud and counterfeit fraud. > > ``` > The new technology requirements however, **do not apply to visitors travelling to the EU with Visa cards issued from their country of origin.** All merchants displaying a Visa logo are required to accept all forms of Visa cards that are presented to them. > > As with the introduction of any new technology, it may take time for everyone to get used to the new system and some EU merchants may be unclear as to how to treat foreign-issued cards or cards without a chip. The chip and PIN sales terminals being used in the EU can recognize and handle magnetic stripe and chip and signature cards. The terminal will automatically read the card and know whether a PIN or a signature is necessary. It will then give the sales clerk the appropriate prompts. > > If you encounter a problem at a merchant in the EU, you should ask the merchant to swipe the card and follow the prompts on the terminal, or ask the merchant to call their acquiring bank for clarification on the process. If the problem is still not resolved, please call Visa Customer Care Services... > > ``` (bolding mine) (from [this Visa Canada page about traveling with your credit card](http://www.visa.ca/en/personal/travelling/travel_eu.cfm).) ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/28 "2009-04-21T21:17:12Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > The stores will very likely refuse such cards, as the risk is then [legally] transferred from the card company to them. That only holds if the merchant accepts a _chip-and-PIN_ card without requiring the PIN. There’s no such liability shift if the merchant accepts a card which requires a signature, such as stripe-and-sig cards from the US. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/29 "2009-04-21T22:31:57Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > That only holds if the merchant accepts a _chip-and-PIN_ card without requiring the PIN. There’s no such liability shift if the merchant accepts a card which requires a signature, such as stripe-and-sig cards from the US. Edit: and I suppose that also implies that the merchant _can_ accept the PIN via the terminal and doesn’t ask for it. I don’t expect merchants who aren’t set up with chip-and-PIN terminals to ask for my PIN when they see that I have a chip. AFAIK, Canadian PINs are all four digits long as well; at least every default one I’ve ever been given has had four digits. I don’t think that ATMs or PoS terminals with alphanumerics on the keypads are by any means universal here either. I definitely remember seeing them here, but I also remember seeing machines with only numbers on the number pad. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/30 "2009-04-22T22:55:24Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > i.e. the graphical interface seems to be geared to a PIN of exactly 4 digits. Also the PINs for all bank cards that I have ever used have invariably been numeric, 4 digits long, and unchangeable Hijack: some years back, the Hypovereinsbank started to allow you to change your PIN on the EC-card (after “Ratgeber Technik” and other Reports showed how easy it was to hack the encryption of the PIN). I don’t know if other banks still allow it. The techpeople keep recommending the chip added to the EC-card for safety - to prevent wireless copy-stealing - but the banks still don’t want to pay the cost, since the courts let them get away with saddling misuse of copyied cards onto the customers. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/31 "2009-04-22T22:58:39Z")
Another bit of advice that’s frequently given: call your bank and/or credit card company and tell them beforehand that you are indeed going to Europe, because otherwise they might cut off your card as stolen when you rack up charges from overseas. ---
**Author:** ![superwombat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superwombat/32/16616_2.png) [@superwombat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/superwombat)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/32 "2009-04-23T05:46:46Z")
When I got my first Royal Bank Client Card (Interac/Debit), the bank had me program my own PIN into it. Four digits. I’ve since changed it to eight digits. I first clued in that it was possible when I was working at a convenience store, and got used to the rhythm of the debit machine. Usually it went: BEEP. BEEP. BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP, BEEP. One day, a guy punched in something like six digits. BEEP. BEEP. BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP (this is when one of my eyebrows went all “Brunh?”) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/33 "2009-04-23T13:47:59Z")
> [@superwombat](#): > > BEEP. BEEP. BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP (this is when one of my eyebrows went all “Brunh?”) Funny. I would just have assumed he entered the third digit wrong and hit clear to start again. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/34 "2009-04-23T14:06:51Z")
> [@superwombat](#): > > When I got my first Royal Bank Client Card (Interac/Debit), the bank had me program my own PIN into it. Four digits. I’ve since changed it to eight digits. > > I first clued in that it was possible when I was working at a convenience store, and got used to the rhythm of the debit machine. > > Usually it went: > > BEEP. BEEP. BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP, BEEP. > > One day, a guy punched in something like six digits. > > BEEP. BEEP. BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP (this is when one of my eyebrows went all “Brunh?”) Hmm. I should try to change my PIN to six digits. I always thought they were limited to four… ---
**Author:** ![karmatrek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/df788c/32.png) [@karmatrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/karmatrek)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/35 "2009-06-29T02:31:36Z")
I was at Malpensa (Milan) airport in Italy in March 2009, and I tried to get cash from all the available machines. My PIN was 7-digits, it didn’t work. As soon as I entered the 6th digit, the machine assumed I was finished, and did NOT allow me to enter the 7th digit. It came back and said “PIN INCORRECT”. I never was able to get any money from any machines in Italy because my PIN was too long. Independent of the bank! 6 digits seems to be the current maximum (as of March 2009). ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/36 "2009-06-29T02:57:37Z")
My Wells Fargo card PIN is eight digits, by choice. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/37 "2009-06-29T02:57:46Z")
I got a [new debit card](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=521187) and the brochure that accompanied it advised me to set a four-digit PIN because ‘some terminals overseas will not accept a PIN with more than four digits’. And today I accidentally entered a three-digit PIN at a PoS terminal and the system error-beeped immediately as I hit Enter, letting me add the fourth digit. So terminals can definitely reject PINs that are too short. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/38 "2009-06-29T03:14:17Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > IAnd today I accidentally entered a three-digit PIN at a PoS terminal and the system error-beeped immediately as I hit Enter, letting me add the fourth digit. So terminals can definitely reject PINs that are too short. Yes, nearly all ATM card systems require at least 4 digits (and usually not more than 8). This is a security measure – with only 3 digits (at most 1,000 possibilities) it’s just too easy to find the PIN by guessing or using a brute force attack. ---
**Author:** ![Athena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@Athena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Athena)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/39 "2009-06-29T12:34:07Z")
4-digit PIN or not, I had a heck of a time getting my cards to work in an ATM in France. The main card we wanted to use did not work at all, regardless of having called several times and confirmed that it would indeed work in French ATMs before leaving home. Luckily, some of our other cards worked at various times. If I’m recalling correctly, my debit card worked, my husband’s, which was tied to the exact same account, did not. All our PINs were 4-digit. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583/40 "2009-06-29T15:13:05Z")
A few years ago, I went to Europe with my wife. We had separate accounts, both with Bank of America, hers a fancy ‘premier’ checking account and mine a cheap ‘economy’ checking account. Most of our travel money was in her account. Her ATM card didn’t work, mine did (both with 4 digit pins). Sometimes it is the bank’s problem, BofA actually credited my account with the cost of the phone calls it took to fix the problem (they couldn’t do anything to make her card work, but they did transfer funds to my account). One other problem we had - we were unable to use our credit cards at any place that used a point of sale credit card reader (i.e., gas pumps and train station ticket kiosks). I think that was because my credit cards didn’t have a chip. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-atm-cards-in-europe-codes-too-long/493583.md?page=1)