# US attacked Japan to start WWII?? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 31, 2002, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454 "2002-08-31T16:51:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/1 "2002-08-31T16:51:51Z")
Maybe I’m inferring too much from the comments of [this Japanese historian](http://www.nautilus.org/napsnet/dr/0208/aug29.html#item7). It’s (Item 7 on the page) about the recent discovery of one of the midget submarines sent in to Pearl Harbor before the massive air strike. It smacks of self-justification to me, as if sinking the sub an hour before the air attack arrived somehow changed the nature of the air attack. > [@](#): > > “The finding provides evidence that it was the Americans who made the first shot, which means the war had already started even before Japan’s air attack on Pearl Harbor.” I’ve been unable to find any other WWII related material attributed to the historian, Takehiko Shibata. Is this guy one of those revisionists who interprets everything in a manner to deny Japanese culpability for starting the war? ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/2 "2002-08-31T17:00:09Z")
This was reported in the British press too. I believe I read the story in _The Guardian_, but a quick search of their online archive has proved fruitless. For what it’s worth, I think most readers recognise that intent is as important as action in this case. Given that the air attack on Pearl Harbour was imminent and the IJN was unlikely to be sending midget submarines in to the port to pick up ice-cream, who fired the first shot is almost irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![stankow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@stankow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stankow)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/3 "2002-08-31T17:11:12Z")
Hm… Military vessel of hostile (if not yet actually at war) foreign power within American territorial waters, planes already in the air after sailing for days across an entire bloody ocean… Yeah, I can buy that the Pearl Harbor attack was nothing more than a fortuitously timed retaliation for the sinking of a minisub. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/4 "2002-08-31T17:24:03Z")
The fact that he says… > [@](#): > > “It’s been our understanding of how World War II started. Now we have the proof.” …completely undermines any value he might have as a WW2 historian. I suppose the Germans just went to Poland in 1939 for a good cheesesteak. The phrase “World War Two” was in play long before the Americans jumped in, and millions of people were already deeply immersed, including the citizens of Nanking and Hong Kong. Putz. ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/5 "2002-08-31T17:42:37Z")
It’s not a case of fresh news. The _Ward_’s ASW attack has been known of since the day it happened. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/6 "2002-08-31T17:50:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ringo \* > \*\*It’s not a case of fresh news. The _Ward_’s ASW attack has been known of since the day it happened. \*\* Yeah, I’ve read several books about Peal Harbor, and the sub incident is mentioned in all of them, IIRC. I never imagined that there was even any doubt about it until I started googling for stories about finding the minisub. Then I started seeing terms like “legendary” and “claimed” and “doubted”. Actually, I suppose it’s a good thing that contemporary historians want physical evidence rather than eyewitness accounts, even if there are dozens or hundreds of them. ---
**Author:** ![Ennui](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ennui/32/3396_2.png) [@Ennui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ennui)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/7 "2002-09-01T14:04:26Z")
Makes me wonder if there had been a manned antiaircraft battery in position that Sunday morning, and the gunner fired on the first of a vast wave of Japanese aircraft prior to them dropping a single bomb, would he same people who are pumping this glurge also say we started it? ---
**Author:** ![Fern\_Forest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/71c47a/32.png) [@Fern\_Forest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fern_Forest)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/8 "2002-09-01T14:30:41Z")
It was on the news here a couple of days ago and while I suppose you could technically call that the first shot of the Pacific war (which is how I heard the guy who found it say it) I wouldn’t actually say it’s true at all. If that was all that had happened that day, that one shot, and there were no attack on Pearl Harbor there would have been no war right after. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/9 "2002-09-01T14:46:22Z")
So are you all interpreting this the same as me? While it seems to be factually correct that the US fired the first shot, I interpreted Shibata’s comment as a justification for the air strike later, rather than as a simple affirmation that “now there is proof” of the timeline? I’m still not sure that is a correct interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![xejkh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/22d042/32.png) [@xejkh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xejkh)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/10 "2002-09-01T15:59:49Z")
That’s like almost impossible. I won’t believe that crap about the Japanese retaliating with an aircraft carrier and hundreds of planes immediately after the US sunk a Japanese sub. What was that sub doing in US territory anyway? And what were the planes and ships doing there? They happened to be there? They were on a trip to visit the Japanese consul on Hawaii? And they happened to see the Japanese sub sink, so they retaliated on the spot? This justification for Pearl Harbor is as ridiculous as Hitler staging a Polish attack in the Polish-German border to claim that Poland had fired the first shot. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/11 "2002-09-01T17:31:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Another historian, Yoshiaki Yoshimi, at Tokyo’s Chuo University, said the finding offered little to revisionist historians. The fact that the sub was found where it was proves that Japan was preparing for the surprise attack," Yoshimi said. Japan’s sneak attack on Pearl Harbor is a sensitive subject here with many feeling guilty about their country’s role in the war. > > Reports of the discovery even failed to interest local media with none of the major newspapers carrying the news today in their early-morning editions. from [http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:St4CE9HmrbcJ:seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134525211\_sub30.html+"Takehiko+Shibata"'+defense&hl=en&ie=UTF-8](http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:St4CE9HmrbcJ:seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134525211_sub30.html+%22Takehiko+Shibata%22%27+defense&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) So it was probably nothing more than asome hard-lined conservative apologist trying to score points. Most people in Japan probably don’t think that way. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/12 "2002-09-01T17:49:06Z")
The Pacific theatre of WWII didn’t start with Japan’s sneak attack on Pearl Harbour or the sinking of the Japanese midget sub. It started when Japan invaded Korea and subsequently China. I blame this whole revisionist claptrap on the US’s decision of not hanging the head war criminal, Hirohito. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/13 "2002-09-01T17:56:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimboguy \* > \*\*So are you all interpreting this the same as me? > > While it seems to be factually correct that the US fired the first shot, I interpreted Shibata’s comment as a justification for the air strike later, rather than as a simple affirmation that “now there is proof” of the timeline? > > I’m still not sure that is a correct interpretation. \*\* I don’t think anyone could reasonably claim that Pearl Harbor, or Phillipines, or Malay Penisular attacks would not have been conducted had we not sunk that sub. It was only a matter of hours before the attacks and it is ludicrous to believe that all of the above mentioned attack forces were assembled, dispatched to their jump off point then just hanging around to find out if that sub got sunk. If no sub sinking would they all have turned around and gone home? In Japan are crazy people also released, like here, on condition that they take their medicine regularly? If so it sounds like this guy is one of them. I suppose it would be possible to claim that we precipitated war with Germany by all sorts of provocative acts. We were furnishing supplies to Britain in defiance of our own Neutrality Act. We had been furnishing escorts for convoys part way across the Atlantic. We had even fired at submarines off the coast and had some destroyers torpedoed during spring and summer of 1941. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/14 "2002-09-01T18:25:24Z")
David Simmons, I agree with your comments, but my question, more specifically is: Is Shibata actually making a false revisionist claim, OR Am I mistakenly interpreting his comment AS a false revisionist claim? As I noted above, I could find no other info online to judge his credibility. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/15 "2002-09-01T19:03:47Z")
I’m really amazed that this has gotten the play it has. As **Ringo** pointed out, this isn’t fresh news. All the discovery does is confirm that the sub the Ward shot at actually was sunk. But the Ward radioed the situation as soon as it shot at the sub, and before the actual attack. It would make no sense for them to lie about it. This is merely just physical evidence that backs up what was reported and what no one seriously doubted. And the attack on Pearl Harbor wasn’t a retaliation by Japan over the sinking of the sub. It only took place an hour later, and it would be hardly likely that they would have any idea what happened to their sub. Further, the Japanese airplanes and other midget subs were well within striking distance of Pearl Harbor when it happened. What the hell were they doing there if not planning an attack? In addition, Japanese documents showed that Japan planned to attack Pearl that day, and the Japanese negoiators were even told to give a message to the U.S. breaking off negotiations (they didn’t in time). This is just a trivial footnote to history. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/16 "2002-09-01T20:03:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimboguy \* > \*\* > > Is Shibata actually making a false revisionist claim, > > \*\* It sure looks that way to me. Otherwise why make such a statement at all? As has been pointed out elsewhere, it has been no secret at all that midget subs were engaged before the planes actually appeared at Oahu. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/17 "2002-09-01T22:10:16Z")
[Antidote to revisionist Japanese thinking about who started the Pacific war.](http://www.iwm.org.uk/online/pearl_harbour/hb_j_agg.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/18 "2002-09-02T13:59:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Urban Ranger \* > **The Pacific theatre of WWII didn’t start with Japan’s sneak attack on Pearl Harbour or the sinking of the Japanese midget sub. It started when Japan invaded Korea and subsequently China.** Well, not Korea. That dispute got settled in the Treaty of Portsmouth ending the Russo-Japanese War in 1910, when Russia, and the world as a whole, recognized Japan’s right to occupy Korea. I think a better incident would be the invasion of Manchuria. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/19 "2002-09-02T14:11:17Z")
I would suggest that a number of wars were underway in 1941, but it didn’t become WORLD War II until all the major combatants were engaged. But that’s another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454/20 "2002-09-02T14:36:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > So it was probably nothing more than asome hard-lined conservative apologist trying to score points. Most people in Japan probably don’t think that way. Why wouldn’t you think so? Do you have the impression that Japanese people by and large have a reasonable attitude toward their own recent history? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-attacked-japan-to-start-wwii/126454.md?page=2)