# US: Baghdad bombed their own market??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 28, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662 "2003-03-28T00:51:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/21 "2003-03-28T08:45:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EasyPhil \* > Personally, I’d rather take the word of a journalist that was on the ground in Baghdad. > > Civilians Slaughtered > Robert Fisk, The Independent\*\* > > (snip) In whose universe is this nonsense “journalism?” ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/22 "2003-03-28T09:28:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by friedo \* > \*\*In whose universe is this nonsense “journalism?” \*\* The one **EasyPhil** is in, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![deball](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@deball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deball)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/23 "2003-03-28T13:04:36Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by EasyPhil \* > \*\* > Civilians Slaughtered > Robert Fisk, The Independent_\* I was wondering where some of this _news_ was coming from. Now I know. Good Grief… That’s worse than the knee-jerk “Huge Chemical Weapons Factory!” scoop the Jerusalem Post had. ---
**Author:** ![elfje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19b73/32.png) [@elfje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfje)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/24 "2003-03-28T13:35:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*Yeah, gravity’s a bitch. \*\* I disagree gravity rulez! (but not when it drops a bomb on your head, no) it’s one of the few things I believe in 😃 ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/25 "2003-03-28T13:42:29Z")
Most reports I’ve seen have said it was most likely a US bomb. To the people that are saying that they have owned up before so why wouldn’t they do it again. Well this is the worst incident. Also by throwing out that it was a Iraqi weapon it gets that info in the news cycle for a while. They can correct it later but a hell of a lot of people will still only remember the Iraqi bomb part. Try going around and asking people what kind of missile was fired at Kuwait at the beginning of the conflict. I bet a hell of a lot of people still think they were SCUDS because that is what they heard. May or may be a Allied bomb but I trust the PR machine that is connected to the Army as far as I can spit a rat. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/26 "2003-03-28T13:59:36Z")
Ummm…a question. With so many Iraqi “civilian paramilitaries” running around, could some dumb dodo have got ahold of some HE ordinance he wasn’t qualified with, & accidentally set it off inside the market square, blowing himself up in the process? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/27 "2003-03-28T14:11:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rick \* > \*\*Anybody remember “The luckiest man in Iraq” from GWI? The bomb was on the way down and this Iraq truck drives across the bridge while the bomb is on the way down. The truck just clears the bridge and the bomb hits and blows up the bridge. > Sounds like the bus was a couple of seconds too slow. \*\* I also remember the civilian train that was blown up by an American bomb in Yugoslavia. When running the bombsight videotape, the Pentagon doubled the speed of the tape to make it appear as if the pilot had less time to veer the bomb off course then he actually did. Amazingly, they got away with this for a few days until people started asking when Serbia had gotten bullet trains. Not that this proves anything, but the Pentagon does not have a very good track record of honesty in these matters. I’ll reserve judgment if and when actual evidence is provided. ---
**Author:** ![Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Clint\_in\_Wichita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clint_in_Wichita)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/28 "2003-03-28T14:19:57Z")
If the US didn’t spend untold billions developing and producing highly accurate weapons, Iraqi civilian casualties would be much, much higher. All Saddam has to do is get the fuck out of Iraq, and this will stop. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/29 "2003-03-28T14:33:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EasyPhil \* > \*\*Personally, I’d rather take the word of a journalist that was on the ground in Baghdad. > > \*\* > Civilians Slaughtered > Robert Fisk, The Independent\*\* \*\* EasyPhil, ``` I agree that an objective journalist might provide useful information. However it might be informative to check out Robert Fisk's reputation before giving him too much credibility. This is the person after whom the verb "To Fisk" was named. "Fisking" is to analyze a piece of obviously biased journalism line by line pointing out the logical and factual errors. In no way is Fisk qualified to examine bomb damage and or fragments and make a judgement on what caused it. Then again, it makes very little sense here to quibble over who bombed who. Unless this was a deliberately planted bomb designed to damage US reputation (one possibility of unknown probability), then whether this was the result of an American bomb going astray or an antiaircraft missile falling on a populated area, it's still a horrible byproduct of war that none of us are happy or proud of. Still, the fact that this is getting such media play is a demonstration of how hard the US is trying to avoid civilian casualties. (And a complete off-topic jab -- I don't see Fisk covering a suicide bombing in Jerusalem with the same degree of compassion for the slain and contempt for the perpetrator.) ``` ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/30 "2003-03-28T15:35:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Finagle \* > \*\*EasyPhil, > > ``` > I agree that an objective journalist might provide useful information. However it might be informative to check out Robert Fisk's reputation before giving him too much credibility. This is the person after whom the verb "To Fisk" was named. "Fisking" is to analyze a piece of obviously biased journalism line by line pointing out the logical and factual errors. > > In no way is Fisk qualified to examine bomb damage and or fragments and make a judgement on what caused it. > > ``` > > \*\* You make a good point, but **you** have to apply the same skepticism to the information that’s being put out by the administration and it’s allies since they have a clear and recent history(last 7 days) of outright lying about what has happened in the war: Claims of cities being captured that weren’t, large uprisings that were small or insignificant, Saddaam using stunt doubles because he was killed in the initial bombing, which changed to him being injured and so on and so on. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/31 "2003-03-28T15:39:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wabbit \* > \*\*Well, it proves that good old Fisk can get a good head of steam going without having all the facts! 😉 \*\* At least it not the flat out lies and deliberate distortions floated by the “liberating” forces. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/32 "2003-03-28T15:42:37Z")
> [@](#): > > If the US didn’t spend untold billions developing and producing highly accurate weapons, Iraqi civilian casualties would be much, much higher. The irony… I can´t believe I was the first to catch this. If the U.S. didn’t spend untold trillions developing highly accurate and deadly weapons this war wouldn’t have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/33 "2003-03-28T15:58:31Z")
It’s a very Orwellian way of doing things, for Saddam I mean, to bomb his own people, and this has usually been done to strenghthen the resolve of the people, all I know it means that he is either desperate of support or low on morale, or both. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/34 "2003-03-28T15:59:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Estilicon \* > \*\*The irony… I can´t believe I was the first to catch this. If the U.S. didn’t spend untold trillions developing highly accurate and deadly weapons this war wouldn’t have happened. \*\* Yeah why is that? A fairly decent explanation I’ve heard was that every time the Iraqis turn on their anti aircraft targeting radar, the US can see it and take them out quickly. Instead of using it, they’ve been launching aa missles without the radar, effectively rendering them useless, but still very dangerous to people who frequent things like markets and such. ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/35 "2003-03-28T16:02:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EasyPhil \* > \*\*At least it not the flat out lies and deliberate distortions floated by the “liberating” forces. \*\* Good God man. I know you think you are being smart by not swallowing whole the “lies” of evil American propagandists but show enough critical thought at least to realize you’ve substituted one extreme bias for another. Mr. Fisk, though he “is there,” (and in being there can’t write anything bad about Saddam’s regime - no freedom of speech or press) is _hardly_ an unbiased observer. At least have the good grace to admit it when confronted with his reputation (unlike some others in GD). If you were reading his article with a clear eye you would see that he doesn’t exactly have any “smoking guns,” just a bomb that wasn’t supposed to be there and quite a few blanks he is all too happy to fill in. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/36 "2003-03-28T16:07:13Z")
For a guy who claims to have been there, Fisk’s claim of “two missles” isn’t being reported by anyone else (Well, except the “World Socialist” who has the death toll at “approaching 30” and fawningly quotes Fisk). [And his death toll is off by 6 or so](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2892215.stm). And there’s no way a guy on the ground could know it was an American pilot. But we wouldn’t want the facts to get in the way of his news reporting. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/37 "2003-03-28T16:12:03Z")
Good points guys. Don’t forget **Phil** , Fisk has an Iraqi minder with him 24/7. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/38 "2003-03-28T16:16:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Azael \* > \*\*Good God man. I know you think you are being smart by not swallowing whole the “lies” of evil American propagandists but show enough critical thought at least to realize you’ve substituted one extreme bias for another. > > Mr. Fisk, though he “is there,” (and in being there can’t write anything bad about Saddam’s regime - no freedom of speech or press) is _hardly_ an unbiased observer. At least have the good grace to admit it when confronted with his reputation (unlike some others in GD). If you were reading his article with a clear eye you would see that he doesn’t exactly have any “smoking guns,” just a bomb that wasn’t supposed to be there and quite a few blanks he is all too happy to fill in. \*\* If I get solid information to the contrary, I will of course change my mind, but I find it more plausible for US missles to be the cause of this carnage than the other stories that are being floated. The US is firing missles into and dropping bombs on the city, the probability is quite high that it was two US missles as many have reported. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/39 "2003-03-28T16:22:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EasyPhil \* > \*\*You make a good point, but **you** have to apply the same skepticism to the information that’s being put out by the administration and it’s allies since they have a clear and recent history(last 7 days) of outright lying about what has happened in the war: Claims of cities being captured that weren’t, large uprisings that were small or insignificant, Saddaam using stunt doubles because he was killed in the initial bombing, which changed to him being injured and so on and so on. \*\* Well, I am watching CNN and FoxNews with the awareness that the entire world (including the people we are fighting) are also watching CNN and FoxNews. \* So I don’t expect to get the full and accurate scoop on what’s happening in the war and neither should you.\* Be reasonable – even disregarding the very real “fog of war”, part of any war plan is to convince the other side that resistance is futile. So \* of course \* the initial reports are going to be positive in the hopes of spreading disinformation and discouraging the opposition. The government and media have actually said “Don’t believe everything you hear, because some of what we’re saying is intended to deceive the enemy.” So I think “outright lying” is a bit harsh unless you are being breathlessly naive about how war time media works. There’s an article somewhere out there in the blog world that I can’t find just now that basically says, “The more outrageous the claim, the longer you should wait before accepting it.” So, something like 24 hours for news of a uprising in a city, 48 hours for news of a chemical plant being found, and so on. So I think the OP (and pretty much everyone else on the board) should realize that both sides are generating disinformation and propaganda, and should take a deep breath before posting. ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662/40 "2003-03-28T16:23:24Z")
Yea, but would you at least admit that it’s in the realm of possibility that 1) Saddam bombed these places and 2) it could have been an Iraqi missile/AA shell? You know, instead of running off half-cocked shrieking about ‘evil mericans’? It’s idiots like you that are forcing moderates like me to support morons like our President. Good job on that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-baghdad-bombed-their-own-market/164662.md?page=3)