# US Billof rights and European Convention on Human Rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2014, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225 "2014-07-28T09:17:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/21 "2014-07-28T14:56:31Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I would rather walk around in Arabic clothing in the UK than in the USA. If I can ask, why? We have plenty of Muslims around here, and they go about their business in headscarves often, and we even see men wearing the occasional galabiyya, here in the 2nd largest Texas city. I went to college with a couple of hijab wearing girls at Texas A&M, not known for tolerance, and nobody that I’m aware of ever gave them a hard time or even said anything negative. We’re not nearly so intolerant as the news would make you think; that stuff is news because it’s so uncommon, you know. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/22 "2014-07-28T15:12:36Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Aye, and there’s the rub- nearly fifty independent countries come together and write a Convention of Rights despite massively divergent legal systems and languages. > > 50 American states cannot reach agreement over clear breaches of rights unless a miracle occurs (ERA). The ERA is completely unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/23 "2014-07-28T15:18:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The ERA is completely unnecessary. In your opinion, but not in many others’ opinion. Gender equality is contained in the ECHR. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/24 "2014-07-28T15:20:29Z")
> [@bump](#): > > If I can ask, why? We have plenty of Muslims around here, and they go about their business in headscarves often, and we even see men wearing the occasional galabiyya, here in the 2nd largest Texas city. I went to college with a couple of hijab wearing girls at Texas A&M, not known for tolerance, and nobody that I’m aware of ever gave them a hard time or even said anything negative. > > We’re not nearly so intolerant as the news would make you think; that stuff is news because it’s so uncommon, you know. Maybe I was just going on news reports of Sikhs being attacked as ‘ragheads’. > **[Sikhs attacked in USA - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.](https://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sikhs_attacked_in_USA)** ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/25 "2014-07-28T16:33:57Z")
Meanwhile, in the UK… [Muslim call for government action over mosque attacks](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-23412247) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/26 "2014-07-28T16:35:58Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > In your opinion, but not in many others’ opinion. Some data to back up that claim please? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/27 "2014-07-28T16:43:51Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Amendment VI > In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence. > Such provisions are common in other jurisdictions now. > Amendment VII > In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law. > This guarantee is largely circumvented in the USA by over-charging and plea bargaining. I am not convinced that it is any better guarantee of a fair trial than Judge or Magistrates disposal of less major crimes in other democracies. Nitpick: the right to a jury in criminal cases is in Amendment VI, while the jury right in Amendment VII is for civil trials (“suits”). Your comment on Amendment VII addresses criminal cases. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/28 "2014-07-28T16:45:46Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Freedom of speech is better protected in the USA, but no right is absolute. Even in the US there are exceptions- libel law, hate speech, shouting “Fire” in the theatre etc. Hate speech is not illegal in any jurisdiction in the US. > [@](#): > > The other question is with true Freedom of the Press- in the USA this has resulted in the best media that can be bought. The political range of most European media is far wider than mainstream US Media (but minority media is freer in the US). [Tell me, does Rupert Murdoch still have the British PM on speed dial?](http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/apr/09/phone-hacking-rupert-murdoch-gordon-brown) > [@PJen](#): > > Gender equality is contained in the ECHR. And it’s protected in the US by the 14th amendment. > [@Pjen](#): > > Maybe I was just going on news reports of Sikhs being attacked as ‘ragheads’. > > [http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/S...ttacked\_in\_USA](http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/S...ttacked_in_USA) Anti-Muslim violence surges in UK. That article cites over 500 cases of anti-Muslim violence in London alone. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/29 "2014-07-28T16:53:18Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Maybe I was just going on news reports of Sikhs being attacked as ‘ragheads’. > > [Sikhs attacked in USA - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.](http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sikhs_attacked_in_USA) Wow…that’s kind of an old article there. Got anything more recent? Like [this](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10804880/Islamophobia-People-grab-our-veils-call-us-terrorists-and-want-us-dead-What-its-really-like-to-be-a-Muslim-woman-in-Britain.html) or [this](http://rt.com/news/france-anti-muslim-attacks-460/) or…?..well, the list is endless actually and you can easily Google 'Muslim attacks in \ and get your own long list. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/30 "2014-07-28T16:59:03Z")
In case the OP hasn’t gotten it so far, the BoR is not anything special in the US constitution. It’s just the first 10 amendments. It was never meant to be an exhaustive list, and it has been added to 17 times since it’s adoption, and interpreted more broadly than it had been in the past I don’t know how many times by the SCOTUS. The idea that it represents some static relic of the 18th century is simple ignorance about what the US constitution is and how it is meant to change over time. I’m happy you Europeans have your own way of doing things, and you’re welcome to it. Our system seems to be working well enough that more Europeans immigrate here than vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/31 "2014-07-28T17:10:01Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Of course there is a difference between theory and practice. I would rather walk around in Arabic clothing in the UK than in the USA. Many people from areas that would tend to wear traditional clothing seem frightened to in the US (unless they are orthodox Jews!). Someone should tell that to all the immigrant Muslim women in hijabs that I routinely saw around campus at my previous university. Muslims are in general much better integrated in society in America than in countries like the UK or France. Incidentally, last I checked most of the (tiny) number of French women wearing full burqa attire were white French converts, not immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/32 "2014-07-28T17:19:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > In case the OP hasn’t gotten it so far, the BoR is not anything special in the US constitution. It’s just the first 10 amendments. And arguably the 27th. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/33 "2014-07-28T17:29:49Z")
Is the OP implying that items in the Bill of Rights that are “common in other jurisdictions now” ought to be deleted? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/34 "2014-07-28T17:39:44Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Maybe I was just going on news reports of Sikhs being attacked as ‘ragheads’. > > [Sikhs attacked in USA - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.](http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Sikhs_attacked_in_USA) They’re almost certainly isolated attacks by ignorant and/or unbalanced people. Sikhs are welcome around here- I live a couple of miles from a [rather large Gurdwara](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-f8QqfCgSh3A/T5S8ZpO3YUI/AAAAAAAAAmo/31QmyzNmG5s/s1600/IMG_3000_new.jpg) (for Texas anyway) in fact. They don’t hide it either. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/35 "2014-07-28T18:07:44Z")
It seems to me that both have strengths and weaknesses. The US Constitution is slow to change and in some ways outdated, but in Europe we’re not as respectful of freedom of speech as I’d like. 99.9% of the time it’s enough, but outlawing of Holocaust denial, for example, is ridiculous. I also dislike the UK’s established religion, but still prefer the _de jure_ power of religion here to the _de facto_ power it wields in the US. What are you hoping to achieve by this, **Pjen**? I suppose we might all come away with a greater awareness of the flaws in our respective political systems, after everyone gets defensive and picks as many holes in their opponents’ preferred legislation as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/36 "2014-07-28T20:25:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Is freedom of speech and freedom of the press as widely protected in Europe as it is in the United States? I’m talking about the negative forms of expression - stuff that’s racist, pornographic, seditious, threatening, libelous, or inciting. I think European systems are more likely to prohibit the expression of offensive stuff like this for the good of society while America has the idea that allowing these offensive expressions is a necessary freedom. I remember lots of readers and viewers of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo being shocked that in Sweden journalists could actually be jailed for libel. It’s also worth noting that while the POV of the book is that it’s wrong to jail the main character for it, there’s never a suggestion, including from various journalists that there’s anything wrong with having such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/37 "2014-07-28T20:36:30Z")
I’ll admit nearly pissing myself laughing at the idea that violent attacks on Muslims or the harassment of Muslims is more likely in the US than the UK. Granted, the UK is better than France or Germany. I can’t imagine having mobs of bigoted whites storming a Muslim restaurant in any major city in the US the way these animals were allowed to do so. v=WD5rHx9iKPQ[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD5rHx9iKPQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD5rHx9iKPQ) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/38 "2014-07-28T20:38:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The ERA is completely unnecessary. I disagree with that…but I do agree with your earlier point, that many of us consider U.S. Federalism a feature, not a bug. I’m also glad that the constitution is so very damn hard to amend. Sure, it denies me some amendments I might want…but it also denies the extremist wingnuts the amendments they want. Good trade-off. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/39 "2014-07-28T20:39:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Some data to back up that claim please? The fact that the ERA came close to ratification is a pretty strong cite that many people wanted it. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225/40 "2014-07-28T20:40:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > In case the OP hasn’t gotten it so far, the BoR is not anything special in the US constitution. It’s just the first 10 amendments. It was never meant to be an exhaustive list, and it has been added to 17 times since it’s adoption, and interpreted more broadly than it had been in the past I don’t know how many times by the SCOTUS. > > The idea that it represents some static relic of the 18th century is simple ignorance about what the US constitution is and how it is meant to change over time. > > I’m happy you Europeans have your own way of doing things, and you’re welcome to it. Our system seems to be working well enough that more Europeans immigrate here than vice versa. Yes, if the Bill of Rights were the only rights guaranteed Americans and they were considered exactly the same as they were in the 18th century when the amendments were passed I think it’d be a grave problem. But instead, they are just a list of specific enumerated rights, our constitution makes it clear we retain all of our “natural rights” that we have no specifically ceded to government. We have a supreme court that has done a decent job of fleshing this out. I have brought a lot of criticisms to bear on the Federal Constitution, but the way intrinsic rights are handled is one thing our government has done pretty well since the 1860s legally, and since the 1960s de facto. Yes, rights were violated heavily in the South, but those were all essentially illegal/unconstitutional acts that we refused to recognize as such due to racism. I’m not sure what any enumeration of rights really means if all the government actors involved are willing to ignore them (which was required for Jim Crow to exist as it did.) That being said I think it’s more important that States have local management authority than I think it important they have so much legislative power. I’m a fan of Hamilton’s plan of government which would have curtailed many powers of the States while leaving them as independent administrative entities. There are lots of national standard laws we could really use–like a uniform criminal code or educational system, that we don’t have because of the design of the country. We do have some promulgated codes (common core, and recommended penal code type stuff) but the States cannot be forced to implement them. The only real problem with Hamilton’s plan was it never would have been ratified, since we know that the actual Constitution we got was a compromise it’s safe to bet it’s probably about the only form it could have taken that would have been ratified and brought into power. Where we really missed the boat is after the Civil War I think, that was a time ripe to basically create a whole de novo constitution, but it just wasn’t done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-billof-rights-and-european-convention-on-human-rights/694225.md?page=3)