# US bombing in Syria - how is it justified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246 "2014-09-11T23:16:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/1 "2014-09-11T23:16:36Z")
Personally, I am all for bombing ISIS wherever they are. But, legally: > **[Obama’s ISIS war plan sparks warning from Syrian axis](https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Obamas-ISIS-war-plan-sparks-warning-from-Syrian-axis-375152)** > > WASHINGTON The embattled Syrian regime and its closest allies, Russia and Iran, will oppose American military The embattled Syrian regime and its closest allies, Russia and Iran, will oppose American military action in its territory against Islamic State, unless the White House coordinates US actions with President Bashar Assad, the axis said on Thursday. I presume Assad also objects to such an action. So - how in the world can US justify going in and bombing in Syria _without_ coordinating with Assad? There is no inkling of a threat to the US from ISIS in Syria. Even if there was, Syrian internationally-recognized government is already battling ISIS, quite ruthlessly and for a long time, so inaction of the government cannot be used as the justification. Syria is still a sovereign state, even with civil war going on. Isn’t it against all principles of international law to have US and others bomb Syria without coordinating it with the current Syrian government? And I mean, there is not even a pretense of following any international law whatsoever? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/2 "2014-09-11T23:25:24Z")
Your concern for the legalities of attacking a sovereign state without international support are touching. Did you feel this same way in March 2003? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/3 "2014-09-11T23:33:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Your concern for the legalities of attacking a sovereign state without international support are touching. Did you feel this same way in March 2003? I believe that the inverse turn about is the point of this thread. 😛 The answer, of course, is the same as it was in 2003…we don’t need to justify a decision to bomb the crap out of Syria no more than we did invading Iraq, except to our own electorate. Whether we SHOULD justify our actions on the world court is really another debate, but we certainly don’t have too, no more than Russia has had to justify it’s backhanded and quasi-covert invasion of the Ukraine or annexation of the Crimea or China’s continued occupation of Tibet. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/4 "2014-09-11T23:52:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > US bombing in Syria - how is it justified? Easy, all the cool Presidents do it and he drew a red line in the sand. No boots on the ground. So it doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/5 "2014-09-12T00:04:46Z")
[The legal theory](http://justsecurity.org/14799/legal-theory-presidents-military-initiative-isil/) behind President’s use of force against ISIL (he also claims Art. II Presidential Constitutional authority). A statement from a senior Administration official: Quote: > [@](#): > > The 2001 AUMF authorizes the use of “all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons” responsible for 9/11 and those who “harbored such organizations or persons.” The Administration has interpreted the 2001 AUMF to authorize the use of force against AQ, the Taliban, and associated forces. Based on ISIL’s longstanding relationship with al-Qa’ida (AQ) and Usama bin Laden; its long history of conducting, and continued desire to conduct, attacks against U.S. persons and interests, the extensive history of U.S. combat operations against ISIL dating back to the time the group first affiliated with AQ in 2004; and ISIL’s position – supported by some individual members and factions of AQ-aligned groups – that it is the true inheritor of Usama bin Laden’s legacy, the President may rely on the 2001 AUMF as statutory authority for the use of force against ISIL, notwithstanding the recent public split between AQ’s senior leadership and ISIL. Unidentified official’s statements can always be changed/“misinformed” depending on which way the wind is blowing. This is not the Iraq AUMF from 2003. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/6 "2014-09-12T00:31:27Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I believe that the inverse turn about is the point of this thread. 😛 > > The answer, of course, is the same as it was in 2003…we don’t need to justify a decision to bomb the crap out of Syria no more than we did invading Iraq, except to our own electorate. Whether we SHOULD justify our actions on the world court is really another debate, but we certainly don’t have too, no more than Russia has had to justify it’s backhanded and quasi-covert invasion of the Ukraine or annexation of the Crimea or China’s continued occupation of Tibet. Actually, no, the “inverse turn about” is not the point. In 2003, the justification was, **ostensibly** (note the word), Iraq’s non-compliance with international laws and UN resolutions. Again, ostensibly, so don’t start arguing about whether it was real or not. In the current situation, again, even ostensibly, there is no justification whatsoever that I can see. We’re not attacking Syria. We’re attacking Syrian territory to damage a group that the current Syrian government is fighting, quite stridently, for several years already. Without Syrian government’s acquiescence to our actions, I really don’t see how it can be justified. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/7 "2014-09-12T00:46:11Z")
If I had to justify this, I would claim that Syria is a failed state and is no longer “sovereign” over its territory. But then, that could justify lots of folks going in there for whatever reason. And it would mean that we could only bomb rebel held territory. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/8 "2014-09-12T01:04:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If I had to justify this, I would claim that Syria is a failed state and is no longer “sovereign” over its territory. But then, that could justify lots of folks going in there for whatever reason. And it would mean that we could only bomb rebel held territory. Well, with that reasoning, Putin can claim that Ukraine is a failed state and is no longer “sovereign” over its territory… ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/9 "2014-09-12T01:06:04Z")
“Civis Americanus sum” Because we can. And if we want the above to be true, we must. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/10 "2014-09-12T01:37:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Well, with that reasoning, Putin can claim that Ukraine is a failed state and is no longer “sovereign” over its territory… He could try. It’s unclear to me that Ukraine meets what would be considered a “failed state”. But yes, that has it’s problems. That’s why a said if I had to try and justify it. I don’t actually think it is justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/11 "2014-09-12T02:39:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Well, with that reasoning, Putin can claim that Ukraine is a failed state and is no longer “sovereign” over its territory… Chutzpah, like the kid who killed his parents, asking for leniency because he’s an orphan. Putin caused Ukraine’s inability to govern its eastern provinces! ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/12 "2014-09-12T02:41:34Z")
I thought the justification was pretty much that Assad gasses his own people, so if he doesn’t like it, he can lump it. Obama said just about as much in his speech. We don’t recognize Assad as legitimate anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/13 "2014-09-12T02:44:16Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I thought the justification was pretty much that Assad gasses his own people, so if he doesn’t like it, he can lump it. Obama said just about as much in his speech. > > We don’t recognize Assad as legitimate anymore. So, according to the United States, who is the “legitimate” authority in Syria? And did that “legitimate authority” request US strikes? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/14 "2014-09-12T02:47:40Z")
You’re assuming that the US recognizes any legitimate authority in Syria right now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/15 "2014-09-12T02:49:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So, according to the United States, who is the “legitimate” authority in Syria? And did that “legitimate authority” request US strikes? No one. That’s why we get to do what we like. Plus, there’s the whole only superpower in the world thing. Who’s going to arrest us for breaking “international law”? n.b.: I don’t condone this, just pointing out the Realpolitik. Which you are fully aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/16 "2014-09-12T03:06:03Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I thought the justification was pretty much that Assad gasses his own people, so if he doesn’t like it, he can lump it. Obama said just about as much in his speech. > > We don’t recognize Assad as legitimate anymore. Again - “Kiev bombs its own people, so if they don’t like it they can lump it”. Wonderful precedent. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/17 "2014-09-12T04:52:48Z")
Not really the same situation as with Ukraine. What I’m getting at is that the US was kinda/sorta willing to go to war with Syria a year ago over the poison gas incident. As it turned out, Congress never voted on it and we settled for destroying their chemical weapons instead. But we’re never going to be friends with the Assad regime. If airstrikes inside Syria are “not legitimate”, that is, an act of war, the US (or at least Obama and certain members of Congress) don’t give a shit- they promote the ouster of Assad as it is and would like an excuse to launch a Hellfire missile up his ass. So, our warlike countenance toward Syria dates back to their illegitimate use of WMDs. Russia’s warlike countenance toward Ukraine dates back to… the people wanting a representative leader instead of a Russian puppet, and doing something about it. See the difference? Or is it really about the will of the people not mattering in either of those places any more than it matters to Mitch McConnell that poor people in Kentucky and smart people everywhere want a higher minimum wage? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/18 "2014-09-12T05:00:39Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Not really the same situation as with Ukraine. What I’m getting at is that the US was kinda/sorta willing to go to war with Syria a year ago over the poison gas incident. Yes, but that was willing to go to war with **Syria**. The current thing is not “going to war with Syria”. It is going to war with a terrorist organization inside Syria, with no excuse that Syria is harboring it or supporting it. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/19 "2014-09-12T05:02:53Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Not really the same situation as with Ukraine. What I’m getting at is that the US was kinda/sorta willing to go to war with Syria a year ago over the poison gas incident. As it turned out, Congress never voted on it and we settled for destroying their chemical weapons instead. > > But we’re never going to be friends with the Assad regime. If airstrikes inside Syria are “not legitimate”, that is, an act of war, the US (or at least Obama and certain members of Congress) don’t give a shit- they promote the ouster of Assad as it is and would like an excuse to launch a Hellfire missile up his ass. Yes, but the OP specifically asks about the _legal_ situation. From the point of view of international law, whether the US government of the day likes or admires the government of the day in another sovereign state is irrelevant; it doesn’t give the US licence to attack the territory of that other state, and not have it count as an act of aggression. The US would have a self-defence argument if attacks on the US were being launched from Syrian territory and the Syrian government of the day were either unwilling or unable (and it probably doesn’t matter much which) to prevent this. But I’m not aware of any attacks on the US being launched from Syrian territory. As Terr point out, any justification of these measures which rest on the US government’s assessment of the morality, legitimacy or behaviour of the current Syrian regime can be echoed in similar justifications for Russian action against the Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246/20 "2014-09-12T05:04:09Z")
But if the Assad regime considers attacking ISIS inside Syria an act of war, the US would be happy to commence hostilities against Assad as well. He unleashed WMDs against civilians. Therefore, the Assad regime isn’t considered to be much/any different from a marauding terrorist organization. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-bombing-in-syria-how-is-it-justified/698246.md?page=2)