# US Capitol under siege **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 6, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830 "2021-01-06T20:27:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/481 "2021-01-09T04:59:36Z")
Never mind ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/482 "2021-01-09T05:07:29Z")
It wasn’t Osama. The fault lines have been present for quite a long time. For a nation of 300 million to coexist there has to a strong common foundation. Otherwise there will be cultural fracture planes that can be exploited by propagandists. It’s only going to get worse. Steps to reign in speech and publishing are going to backfire. When powerful AIs start getting to work on memes and messages and are hosted by foreign governments or their proxies what defense will there be against that sort of propaganda if we folks here in the US are becoming more strident with their demands for ideological purity? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/483 "2021-01-09T06:01:05Z")
Nick Ochs, who ran unsuccessfully for state office last November – the wife and I both voted against him – was a founder of the Hawaiian chapter of the Proud Boys. I never even knew they were here. But he was caught on camera participating in the mayhem, and the FBI arrested him at Honolulu airport last night as he returned to Hawaii. He’ll be extradited back to Washington. Story [here](https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/01/08/proud-boys-hawaii-founder-arrested-after-returning-honolulu-following-us-capitol-riots/). Good fucking riddance. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/484 "2021-01-09T06:27:18Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Is there actually a potential crime for which pardon would not be possible? The fact that Jordin Sparks won season six of American Idol instead of Melinda Doolittle is a crime. And there can be no pardon for that one. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/485 "2021-01-09T06:32:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Heh, while we’re “Well, actually”-ing, I found out some interesting (and sadly familiar-sounding) actual information about [the early 20th-c. US plague outbreak](https://www.history.com/news/first-plague-outbreak-united-states-california): As a further aside, Caitlin Doughty - Ask a Mortician has a [YouTube episode on the SF plague](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtG_5YHaWms). The government does not come off well. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/486 "2021-01-09T06:35:55Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > I’ve liked him ever since Rock Me Gently was a hit. And he wrote “Sugar, Sugar” for the Archies. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/487 "2021-01-09T12:13:35Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > CNN just played a video of an officer being crushed in a door by the mob(other officers behind him). Why were none of these rioters shot under such conditions? That footage is also included here. The Republican violence is featured here, as a counter to the downplaying, by Trump water carriers, of the severity of the madness. The video starts with the news that the number of dead is one more than the toll at Benghazi. The answer to your question is obviously white privilege. It extends even to those actively killing cops. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/lhjRXO72v1s/maxresdefault.jpg "Must-See New Video Shows Capitol Riot Was Way Worse Than We Thought | All In | MSNBC") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhjRXO72v1s&t=9) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/488 "2021-01-09T13:57:33Z")
The fire extinguisher used as a murder weapon has me wondering. Having seen every episode of every permutation of _Law&Order_, especially heinous crimes are dealt with swiftly. The police should have prints and touch DNA back, the killer identified, and Jack McCoy would be prosecuting the offender. Dum Dum. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/489 "2021-01-09T14:06:32Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > The fire extinguisher used as a murder weapon has me wondering. Having seen every episode of every permutation of _Law&Order_ , especially heinous crimes are dealt with swiftly. The police should have prints and touch DNA back, the killer identified, and Jack McCoy would be prosecuting the offender. > > Dum Dum.- If there’s any problem, put Bobby Goren onto it. He’ll tilt his head sideways and figger the whole thing out in a New York minute. BTW, L&O: Criminal Intent-- the whole shebang-- is streaming for free on NBC’s new channel, Peacock. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/490 "2021-01-09T14:12:16Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > BTW, L&O: Criminal Intent-- the whole shebang-- is streaming for free on NBC’s new channel, Peacock. I’m embarrassed to admit I knew that. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/491 "2021-01-09T14:18:01Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I don’t see how a person, let alone a president, can pardon himself; a pardon typically involves two people. A president pardoning himself essentially grants himself blanket immunity, which seems like the kind of regal power that the Americans were trying to get away from. If they were really trying to get away from regal power altogether, they wouldn’t have included a pardon clause at all. The pardon was a traditional royal prerogative, and I’m not sure it’s a necessary power in a country that is run on the rule of law. The United States also maintains the principle of sovereign immunity, where the government can’t be sued unless it gives permission. Not exactly a good republican principle. Anyway, the argument you made is one of the arguments made by those who assert that a self-pardon would not be allowed - that the word “grant” in the section of the constitution dealing with pardons was understood, at the time of the framing, to be a transitive verb involving two separate people. That is, a “grant” was something that one person did for another, not for himself. There are also scholars who argue that the more general principle, that a person should not be a judge in his or her own case, would render a self-pardon illegitimate. On the other hand, especially if you reject the historical argument about the definition of “grant,” discussed above, there is nothing in the text of the constitution that explicitly prevents a self-pardon. The constitution gives the President the “Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.” It places no limits on whom he can grant those reprieves or pardons. These issues, and more, are discussed by two legal scholars in the Constitution Center podcast I linked in my previous post. One of them believes that a self-pardon would be legal, and the other doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/492 "2021-01-09T14:28:24Z")
My people! 🙋🏽‍♀️ ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_McQwark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4da419/32.png) [@Steve\_McQwark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_McQwark)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/493 "2021-01-09T14:51:00Z")
> [@gnarator](#): > > > [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > > > I’ve liked him ever since Rock Me Gently was a hit. > > And he wrote “Sugar, Sugar” for the Archies. So cleaning the rotunda was part of the community service hours he has to perform as punishment? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/494 "2021-01-09T15:13:18Z")
Great post, mhendo. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/495 "2021-01-09T15:15:52Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > One of them believes that a self-pardon would be legal, and the other doesn’t. Well, a self-pardon would certainly be _legal_, but I have my doubts as to whether it would be _effective_. ---
**Author:** ![AppallingGael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9bd4f/32.png) [@AppallingGael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AppallingGael)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/496 "2021-01-09T15:39:35Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Cheeto-Faced Shit Gibbon. > > I think it originated in Scotland (although I think it was originally Loofa-Faced Shit Gibbon.) Tough one. I guessed “Cluster fuck’s stable genius”. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/497 "2021-01-09T16:01:06Z")
An [editorial](https://www.forbes.com/sites/randalllane/2021/01/07/a-truth-reckoning-why-were-holding-those-who-lied-for-trump-accountable/?sh=7e5a215a5710) in Forbes magazine a couple of days ago by editor, Randall Lane, slammed the lies of the administration, and in particular called out Trump’s various spokespeople (Conway, Spicer, Sanders, Grisham, McEnany) for their roles in spreading disinformation. Then he issued a warning: > [@](#): > > Let it be known to the business world: Hire any of Trump’s fellow fabulists above, and _Forbes_ will assume that everything your company or firm talks about is a lie. We’re going to scrutinize, double-check, investigate with the same skepticism we’d approach a Trump tweet. Want to ensure the world’s biggest business media brand approaches you as a potential funnel of disinformation? Then hire away. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/498 "2021-01-09T16:05:02Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Dum Dum. As much as I love L&O (see below) the timelines are never right. It can take years - like 5 or more - for murder cases to get to trial. A crime committed under Greevy and Logan and arraigned under Robinette would have motions filed by Claire for Stone, and finally hit trial under McCoy and Abby, with appeals handled by Cutter. L&O lives in the MASH time/space frame. > [@kayaker](#): > > I’m embarrassed to admit I knew that. Should I be embarrassed I own all L&O Mothership and CI DVDs? (No Conviction or L&O:PBJ or heinous SVU for me, though) as well as L&O:LA and L&O:UK? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/499 "2021-01-09T16:29:48Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Should I be embarrassed I own all L&O Mothership and CI DVDs? (No Conviction or L&O:PBJ or heinous SVU for me, though) as well as L&O:LA and L&O:UK?- Whoa. 🙇🏽‍♀️ I bow to you, Sensei. I only have the original L&O boxed set. (But I AM still watching L&O:SVU, though God knows why.) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2021, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830/500 "2021-01-09T17:24:30Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Then he issued a warning: > > > [@](#): > > > > Let it be known to the business world: Hire any of Trump’s fellow fabulists above, and _Forbes_ will assume that everything your company or firm talks about is a lie. We’re going to scrutinize, double-check, investigate with the same skepticism we’d approach a Trump tweet. Want to ensure the world’s biggest business media brand approaches you as a potential funnel of disinformation? Then hire away. This seems quite fair, and I hope that it becomes the standard for any of Trump’s cronies. They are toxic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-capitol-under-siege/929830.md?page=26)