### Author:  [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/81 "2009-08-25T18:33:56Z")
Okay, female reproductive organs probably require, in general, more medical attention than men. But in terms of maintenance, I don’t think I do any more washing or hygiene or upkeep than the average male.
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### Author:  [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/82 "2009-08-25T18:35:03Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#):
>
> Once a year is 100% more than the number of times an average male goes to a urologist.
Just wait until your prostate goes all wonky…
---
### Author:  [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/83 "2009-08-25T18:37:15Z")
Oh, I’ve been to a urologist. Once. Kidney stones.
---
### Author:  [@Maia\_s\_Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maia_s_Well)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/84 "2009-08-25T19:20:53Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#):
>
> Females are used to having high maintenance genitals, so they should be disqualified from the debate.
I agree. Just like I think guys should be disqualified from the abortion debate.
(I maked a lil joke here, just like I was thinking **wierdaaron** did.)
> [@wierdaaron](#):
>
> Girls, however, have a lot to deal with. Periods, yeast infections, wipe front to back, pH balance, no harsh soaps, etc etc etc. It’s not a closed system. It requires maintenance. It needs to be maintained. I don’t think that can be argued without redefining the word.
>
> \
>
> I’m not saying this makes anyone better or worse than anyone else. Just that it’s one more thing that makes it hard for one group to really know what it’s like to be the other.
I get what you’re saying here, **w.aaron** , and I agree. Women do have lots more to do in terms of keepin’ it clean. Men, on the other hand, have these genitals that swing around outside their bodies and seem to be magnetic of small children, pouncing animals, and random baseball bats. I don’t know how you guys walk around without armour-plated jockstraps on.
> [@Rubystreak](#):
>
> …and that my husband ought to watch a few Youtube videos of circumcisions…
That’s a good idea to educate myself (the reason I asked about other parents’ experiences, and thanks to those who responded).
On second thought, I recognize my emotional reaction of “DON’T HURT BABIES NO MATTER WHAT!!!1!” is irrational, and watching videos would prolly just upset me and make me want to get involved in decisions that are none of my business.
---
### Author:  [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/85 "2009-08-25T19:28:17Z")
Think how much pain the babies could be spared by not cutting the umbilical cord.
If watching a video of circumcision is supposed to convince people not to have them done, watching a video of a birth should convince people to never be in the same room as a vagina.
---
### Author:  [@Maia\_s\_Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maia_s_Well)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/86 "2009-08-25T20:08:38Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#):
>
> Think how much pain the babies could be spared by not cutting the umbilical cord.
>
> If watching a video of circumcision is supposed to convince people not to have them done, watching a video of a birth should convince people to never be in the same room as a vagina.
Good points. Over the past 14 years of my career as a parent, I’ve learned that my knee-jerk response to any discomfort in my child doesn’t serve my child’s best interests. She was terrified of the potty, but I figured the discomfort of being forced to use it served her better than sending her on dates wearing diapers.
And god forbid I should become convinced not to be in the same room as a vagina. Don’t want to spend my life laying in doorways.😛
---
### Author:  [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/87 "2009-08-25T20:44:18Z")
You’d probably get your name in some psych textbooks. Or an Oliver Sacks study.
---
### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/88 "2009-08-25T20:45:55Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#):
>
> I was hanging out with my friend and we ran into a former co-worker of his. When the guy saw I was pregnant, he asked if the baby was a boy or girl. When I told him a boy, he asked (this was mere moments after meeting me for the first time): “Do you plan to circumsize him?” I knew this was a loaded question, so I said my husband and I were thinking it over.
>
> He launched into this diatribe about how this was cruel mutilation, and that my husband ought to watch a few Youtube videos of circumcisions. If he still wanted to circumcise the child, then he was, “a heartless, heartless person.”
>
> So yeah, some people feel really rabidly about this, and they are not all women. My friend later told me this guy is obsessed with being anti-circ, and is an activist against it. He goes on my list of Crazy Unsolicited Opinions About the Baby. Yeah, I have a list. 😉
Oh man, don’t get me started on the topic of perfect strangers ranting about parenting choices. :smack:
---
### Author:  [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/89 "2009-08-25T21:01:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#):
>
> The first fact isn’t really an argument either way - the fact many (but not all) provincial gov’ts won’t pay for the procedure says nothing about its value, merely that they govt’s will not pay.
Well, it’s not so much that the government plans won’t cover it but that they used to cover routine circumcisions, and then decided not to (presumably because they decided it’s not actually a good idea medically)
> [@Malthus](#):
>
> What seems to me to be the case: the pendulum of expert opinion has swung back and forth over the years as to the comparative risk/benefit ratio for this procedure; currently, the pendulum is swinging strongly in favour of “benefit”. As always, parents should review whatever data is available and make up their own minds.
I’m not sure I’d say the pendulm as swung strongly in favour of benefit yet, and the very fact that it seems to swing back and forth every decade or two makes me wonder how good the upside could be. Since the benefit seems fairly minor I’ll stick to the ‘if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’ position of non-snipping.
---
### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/90 "2009-08-25T21:09:30Z")
> [@The\_Lurker\_Above](#):
>
> Well, it’s not so much that the government plans won’t cover it but that they used to cover routine circumcisions, and then decided not to (presumably because they decided it’s not actually a good idea medically)
That’s not evidence in either direction. Government bureaucrats making funding decisions aren’t the best people to get medical advice from.
> [@](#):
>
> I’m not sure I’d say the pendulm as swung strongly in favour of benefit yet, and the very fact that it seems to swing back and forth every decade or two makes me wonder how good the upside could be. Since the benefit seems fairly minor I’ll stick to the ‘if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’ position of non-snipping.
That is of course a perfectly acceptable position to take. I’ve taken the opposite position, myself.
---
### Author:  [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/91 "2009-08-25T22:51:56Z")
Whether snippage is good or bad, mandatory snippage is bad. The government should not require anyone to permanently body-modify his or her child. Both my boys are snipped for religious reasons\*. If not for those religious reasons, I probably would not have had them snipped. Either way, if the government had stepped in and said YOU MUST, I probably would have rebelled and neither boy would be snipped.
This debate is very heated, and many people feel very strongly about one side or the other. Until there is significantly more evidence that one way or the other saves lives, I think the government should not mandate either way. By significant evidence, I mean evidence that 500 boys a year have their lives saved simply by being one way or the other in the U.S.
\*Once upon a time I was a devout religious person. I had these boys during that time.
---
### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/92 "2009-08-25T23:09:51Z")
> [@StaudtCJ](#):
>
> Whether snippage is good or bad, mandatory snippage is bad. The government should not require anyone to permanently body-modify his or her child. Both my boys are snipped for religious reasons\*. If not for those religious reasons, I probably would not have had them snipped. Either way, if the government had stepped in and said YOU MUST, I probably would have rebelled and neither boy would be snipped.
>
> This debate is very heated, and many people feel very strongly about one side or the other. Until there is significantly more evidence that one way or the other saves lives, I think the government should not mandate either way. By significant evidence, I mean evidence that 500 boys a year have their lives saved simply by being one way or the other in the U.S.
> \*Once upon a time I was a devout religious person. I had these boys during that time.
Has the government of any country ever _required_ circumcision?
---
### Author:  [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/93 "2009-08-25T23:38:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#):
>
> Has the government of any country ever _required_ circumcision?
No. But when the CDC “promotes” something, some _states_ soon after make it a mandatory item. They did this with prophylactic eye drops for newborns in nearly every state in the union. It is actually something parents can’t opt out of in 3 states right now, even for “religious” reasons, though most states allow opt-outs. I can see state governments making law out of this recommendation, and citing “health purposes” for demanding that all male newborns be circumcized. Not all governments are national.
---
### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/94 "2009-08-25T23:42:29Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#):
>
> Girls, however, have a lot to deal with. Periods, yeast infections, wipe front to back, pH balance, no harsh soaps, etc etc etc. It’s not a closed system. It requires maintenance. It needs to be maintained. I don’t think that can be argued without redefining the word.
Um… yes, the periods are messy, but I’m not with you on the rest. I’ve never had a yeast infection, or any other sort of infection down there, never worried about the pH “balance”, use the same soap on the genitals as on anything else (well, OK, not the orange scrub stuff for removing engine grease from hands, but then, I don’t apply engine grease to my nether regions). I’m puzzled what sort of “high maintenance” you imagine those bits require?
---
### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/95 "2009-08-25T23:45:37Z")
> [@wierdaaron](#):
>
> Urologists treat the urinary systems of men and women.
>
> ETA: And I didn’t have to pick a urologist when I turned 16, and I don’t go to him many times a year.
I didn’t pick a gynecologist at 16, either, and I don’t go to a gynecologist “many times a year”.
Just wait until your prostate starts causing you problems. It’s about the age that your women friends don’t have to worry about periods any more, so they’ll be low maintenance and you’ll be high.
---
### Author:  [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/96 "2009-08-25T23:50:28Z")
I’ve been looking around a little for information about this. [cirp.org](http://cirp.org) seems to be a good reference here.
To me, the hygiene argument seems like an American myth. My guess was that the foreskin has a protective role, and that seems to be the case if you trust the sources below.
I’ll quote some parts of the site, without having had time to read through all information and references (there’s really a LOT of info).
On STDs:
> **[Circumcision and Sexually Transmitted Infections](https://www.cirp.org/library/disease/STD/)**
>
> The relationship between male circumcision and increased risk of contracting sexually transmitted diseases (STD)
> [@](#):
>
> Immunology. Fleiss et al. have described the many natural immunological protective mechanisms provided by the prepuce against infection.10 The prepuce has many immunological protections against disease.10 These mechanisms may explain why surgically-altered, circumcised men seem to have a greater incidence of many different STDs. Dried-out mucous membranes are more prone to infection than naturally moist ones (which is the reason people tend to get more colds in the wintertime!).
>
> The foreskin naturally moisturizes the glans penis, keeping it in optimum healthy condition to resist infection. The subpreputial moisture also contains lyzosyme, an enzyme that attacks and destroys the cell walls of bacteria.1,10
>
> Laumann et al. reviewed data from the National Health and Social Life Survey.9 They found no evidence of a prophylactic role for circumcision. In fact, there was a slight tendency in the opposite direction.9 The absence of the foreskin was significantly associated with bacterial STDs among men who have had many sexual partners in their lifetimes. A rate of 25.4/1000 for chlamydia was found in circumcised men compared with a rate of zero in intact men; herpes was 14.9/1000 in circumcised males compared with 8.1/1000 in intact males.9
>
> […]
>
> […] According to Storms:
> “Recent studies have demonstrated that circumcised men are at increased risk of contracting gonorrhea, syphilis and genital warts. Men are at equal risk for developing human papillomavirus lesions and herpesvirus infections regardless of circumcision status. At least four studies have shown human immunodeficiency virus infection to occur more commonly in circumcised men.8”
>
> […]
>
> Van Howe’s survey of the medical literature is recommended. Van Howe concludes that:
>
> “The only consistent trend is that uncircumcised males may be more susceptible to GUD, while circumcised men are more prone to urethritis. Currently, in developed nations, urethritis is more common than GUD [genital ulcer disease]. In summary, the medical literature does not support the theory that circumcision prevents STDs.13”
>
> […]
>
> Conclusion. The evidence does not support non-therapeutic circumcision to prevent STD infection. On balance, non-circumcision is to be preferred because of the freedom from complications and other adverse effects.
So the STD argument seems to fall to pieces there, though feel free to give more sources towards either side.
On HIV:
> **[Circumcision and HIV](https://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/)**
>
> Subject index with links to abstracts and full text articles about the relationship of circumcision to HIV infection.
> [@](#):
>
> […]
>
> Meta-analyses
>
> de Vincenzi and Mertens found that the existing evidence did not control sufficiently for confounding factors concerning the relationship between circumcision and HIV infection.17 They warned that caution was necessary: Implementing surgery as a strategy for controlling the spread of AIDS was not recommended based on the existing evidence.
>
> Van Howe also concluded that circumcision could not be recommended to prevent HIV infection.44 This conclusion was based on a statistical analysis of all of the data from multiple published studies. In fact, the analysis indicated that circumcised men had a slightly greater chance of contracting HIV.
>
> Angus Nicoll of the British Communicable Disease Surveillance Centre recommended that circumcision should not be used to control HIV infection.32
>
> […]
> Conclusions
>
> Confounding factors to the study of the relationship of HIV infection to male circumcision include:
>
> ```
> * female circumcision
> * "dry sex"
> * genital ulcer disease
> * other STDs
> * unsafe medical practices
> * viral load
> * religion
> * culture
> * education, occupation, and socio-economic status
> * condom use
> * migration status
> * age
> * location of the study
>
> ```
>
> The Cochrane Review found that the existing studies fail to control for most of these confounding factors so the evidence produced is unreliable. After more than forty studies over a span of time greater than a decade, the Fink hypothesis that circumcision somehow reduces HIV infection remains unproven. Ntozi recognizes that this idea that circumcision can reduce HIV infection is only a hypothesis, but would like to see a controlled study carried out to see if circumcision would reduce the tragic epidemic that continues to rage in Africa.34
>
> From time to time the popular press reports that one doctor or another recommends circumcision to reduce HIV infection. While it may be their personal opinion that circumcision prevents HIV transmission, since this has not yet been conclusively demonstrated, these opinions cannot be considered informed medical opinions. Frequently, the news item is based on a single study rather than the complete body of the medical literature. It would be foolish to base public health policy on such reports.
>
> The conditions in Africa are very different from those in the developed world. It would be wrong to apply findings from Africa to the developed nations.
>
> The Cochrane review of the medical literature "found insufficient evidence to support an interventional effect of male circumcision on HIV acquisition in heterosexual men."68
Well, to be honest I didn’t read the entire page on HIV as there is a LOT of information. I picked out some pieces that I found. Feel free to find contradictory statements on the same page from another study :p. My quick pass over the page didn’t find any strong supporters of the fact that it helps prevent HIV, but in any case, it seems far from conclusive that circumcision helps prevente HIV spread.
That page cites 94 sources, so have fun reading!
Here is the page about pain, which somebody asked about:
> **[Pain of circumcision and pain control](https://www.cirp.org/library/pain/)**
>
> This page contains a brief discussion and a menu of articles about the pain of male circumcision.
Complications (WARNING, possibly disturbing images of penises with complications):
> **[Complications, risks, adverse effects of circumcision](https://www.cirp.org/library/complications/)**
>
> Index of articles about the complications, risks, adverse effects, and disadvantages of male neonatal non-therapeutic circumcision
Well, you get the drift. Here’s the index page:
> **[Circumcision Reference Library](https://www.cirp.org/library/)**
>
> CIRP is an Internet resource providing information about all aspects of the genital surgery known as circumcision: Medical considerations, risks, benefits and harm. Includes searchable reference library.
I just don’t see any clear arguments FOR circumcision yet.
---
### Author:  [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/97 "2009-08-25T23:55:42Z")
> [@Maia\_s\_Well](#):
>
> I get what you’re saying here, **w.aaron** , and I agree. Women do have lots more to do in terms of keepin’ it clean.
Do we really? My experience is a lot more in keeping with **Broomstick** ’s.
In fact, if anything, I think we have less washing to do. I’ve read cites that say that all you need is warm water (no soap) for the vagina.
---
### Author:  [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/98 "2009-08-26T00:05:56Z")
**Henrichek** , are you kidding? [cirp.org](http://cirp.org) is _rabidly_ anti-circumcision, and should not be taken as an unbiased or even reliable source.
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/99 "2009-08-26T00:06:55Z")
Circumcision reduces the chances of penile cancer to zero.
Foreskins and dickcheese are nasty and gross.
Circumcision is marginally more hygenic, and there is no compelling reason NOT to do it.
I’ve only had girls, but my wife and I decided during all three of her pregnancies that if we ever have a boy, we’re cutting that shit off. I ain’t retracting no foreskins to clean no dicks. Not even for my own kid. I’ve never for one second missed my own foreskin. I’m amazed at how self-righteous people can get about an issue that matters so little, and which has absolutely no measurable effect on a person’s life except to make them a little cleaner and a little less susceptible to disease.
---
### Author:  [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)
#### Post date: [August 26, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-cdc-initiative-to-promote-routine-circumcision-for-all-baby-boys-raises-its-head/507442/100 "2009-08-26T00:10:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> Circumcision reduces the chances of penile cancer to zero.
>
> Foreskins and dickcheese are nasty and gross.
>
> Circumcision is marginally more hygenic, and there is no compelling reason NOT to do it.
>
> I’ve only had girls, but my wife and I decided during all three of her pregnancies that if we ever have a boy, we’re cutting that shit off. I ain’t retracting no foreskins to clean no dicks. Not even for my own kid. I’ve never for one second missed my own foreskin. I’m amazed at how self-righteous people can get about an issue that matters so little, and which has absolutely no measurable effect on a person’s life except to make them a little cleaner and a little less susceptible to disease.
Do you have some good cites to back that up, or did you miss my post?
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