# US diplomat's wife kills UK teenager, claims diplomatic immunity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400 "2019-10-07T07:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/201 "2019-10-18T17:59:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There is no way that anyone could not have expected that driving on the wrong side of the road would lead to a collusion. This was not an accident, and the only reason to call it such is to try to claim that its OK to drive a car without paying sufficient attention. Or, you know, because she didn’t intend to hit anyone. I know everything is black and white in your world, but that’s not how the real world works. Let’s say we go hunting for deer (in a jurisdiction where this is legal, and while observing all relevant laws). We see a deer. You raise your gun, take aim, ensure there are no humans in the area, and shoot. All intentional conduct. Unbeknownst to you, the deer is a cardboard cut-out and the bullet passes through and kills the human standing behind it. Was the shooting an accident? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/202 "2019-10-18T18:10:24Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Your claim is that she drove her car in a manner expecting to have a head on collision. I’m claiming that it’s reasonable to expect that driving on the wrong side of the road will lead to a head on collision. And I don’t believe that anyone actually disagrees with that. She paid insufficient attention to what she was doing, with predictable (and tragic) results. Or to put it another way, she drove in such a way that she _should have_ expected a collision. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/203 "2019-10-18T18:22:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Or to put it another way, she drove in such a way that she _should have_ expected a collision. She thought she was on the correct side of the road. She was wrong, but she couldn’t have expected a collision _unless she drove on the incorrect side of the road on purpose_. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/204 "2019-10-18T18:45:32Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > She thought she was on the correct side of the road. She was wrong, but she couldn’t have expected a collision _unless she drove on the incorrect side of the road on purpose_. This is ridiculous. You honestly think that only someone driving on the wrong side of the road can understand that doing so is dangerous? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/205 "2019-10-18T18:54:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s not the way the term is used in the UK (officially) these days. [Here’s a Wiki link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision#Terminology), both the cites are UK organisations. “Some organizations” doesn’t demonstrate anything about the official meaning of the term in UK law. It doesn’t even indicate if these organizations are government or law enforcement organizations. And “some” would also indicate that there are other organizations - arguably more organizations, depending on the denotations of “some” - that do use “accident” to describe this sort of event. > [@](#): > > As for the meaning of the word “accident” a [basic Google search](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=accident+definition) gives this - > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury. > > > > 2. an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause. > > This event was neither unexpected nor without apparent cause, and was therefore not an accident. It did not happen by chance, it happen because one person acted in a way prohibited by law. Did the woman expect to hit another car when she went out driving that day? No, she did not. It was an unexpected and unintentional outcome of her inattentiveness. > [@](#): > > I don’t think I’m being needlessly pedantic here, I think it’s important to realise that incidents like this are not simply unfortunate chance but are directly caused by, and preventable by, specific individuals. I don’t mind your pedantry, except in that it’s entirely wrong, as demonstrated by your own cites. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/206 "2019-10-18T18:54:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > This is ridiculous. We are in total agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/207 "2019-10-18T18:57:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > This is ridiculous. You honestly think that only someone driving on the wrong side of the road can understand that doing so is dangerous? No, he’s saying that for her to realize how dangerous it was for her to drive on the wrong side of the road, she would have had to be cognizant that she was on the wrong side of the road in the first place. If she thought she was on the correct side of the road, she would have no reason to expect to get in a head-on accident. Therefore, the accident was unexpected. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/208 "2019-10-18T19:38:34Z")
Whether or not you call it an accident doesn’t of itself exculpate someone from responsibility (in English criminal law), nor (of itself) does a lack of intention. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/209 "2019-10-18T20:50:35Z")
If this was a first time in the UK French tourist, what do you think the criminal penalty would be? ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/210 "2019-10-18T21:34:36Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > If this was a first time in the UK French tourist, what do you think the criminal penalty would be? Unless there was some other factor that we are not privvy to like she was DUI - a lengthy ban and a substantial fine. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/211 "2019-10-18T23:08:20Z")
That’s about what I’d figure, at most. We just had a story where an American driver in British Columbia hit a woman and dragged her under the car a few blocks. The police on the scene seemed to think it didn’t warrant charges and he was free to leave the country - no diplomatic immunity required. Eta: though there may be follow up: > **[Woman hit, dragged several blocks in Hastings Street crash](https://bc.ctvnews.ca/mobile/woman-hit-dragged-several-blocks-in-hastings-street-crash-1.4636119)** > > A woman was hospitalized with life-threatening injuries and a man was taken into custody after a serious crash in the Downtown Eastside early Saturday morning. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/212 "2019-10-18T23:15:24Z")
Sorry, he was held briefly but then released, not free to go from the scene. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/213 "2019-10-24T02:58:33Z")
Video has emerged suggesting the woman was stepping over the trailer hitch when the driver put the car in gear and drove off. If so, he may not even have known about the woman until he came to a stop some blocks later. > **[Video captured victim walking over trailer hitch before horrific Vancouver...](https://bc.ctvnews.ca/mobile/video-captured-victim-walking-over-trailer-hitch-before-horrific-vancouver-accident-police-say-1.4650574)** > > Police have obtained surveillance video showing a Burnaby woman in the moments leading up to a horrific incident that saw her dragged under a vehicle for several blocks, crushing her face and breaking bones in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/214 "2019-10-24T21:12:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Sorry, he was held briefly but then released, not free to go from the scene. On what basis was he not free to go? If he’s not charged with anything, the police can’t restrict his movements. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2019, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/215 "2019-10-24T21:47:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m claiming that it’s reasonable to expect that driving on the wrong side of the road will lead to a head on collision. And I don’t believe that anyone actually disagrees with that. She paid insufficient attention to what she was doing, with predictable (and tragic) results. > > Or to put it another way, she drove in such a way that she _should have_ expected a collision. Are you making the case for a specific offense? Or are you just saying she has moral culpability, and should have been paying closer attention/taken greater care regarding the possibility of making this error? Specific offenses have mental state requirements, and link the mental state to something specific. Without knowing the particular offense, it’s hard to discuss what mental state would lead to criminal liability. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/216 "2019-10-25T00:20:51Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > On what basis was he not free to go? If he’s not charged with anything, the police can’t restrict his movements. You’re a funny, funny guy. I assume the basis was “we’re deciding whether to charge him” camouflaged with “we really need you to come down to the station for sone questions”. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/217 "2019-10-25T00:33:49Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Are you making the case for a specific offense? Or are you just saying she has moral culpability, and should have been paying closer attention/taken greater care regarding the possibility of making this error? > > Specific offenses have mental state requirements, and link the mental state to something specific. Without knowing the particular offense, it’s hard to discuss what mental state would lead to criminal liability. The mental state would be recklessness or negligence, and the offence one involving either reckless or dangerous driving. [Dangerous driving](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangerous_driving) does not require that the intent be to drive dangerously, just that a competent and careful driver would know that it was dangerous. I would argue that any competent and careful driver would know which side of the road to drive on, and that it is extremely dangerous to drive on the other. [Causing death by dangerous driving](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causing_death_by_dangerous_driving) is a serious crime, with punsihment of up to 14 years imprisonment. In short, being careless about which side of the road you drive on is very much illegal, and I would say that the several people here who’ve said how easy it is should reflect on how much care they take when driving. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/218 "2019-10-25T02:00:52Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You’re a funny, funny guy. I assume the basis was “we’re deciding whether to charge him” camouflaged with “we really need you to come down to the station for sone questions”. perhaps I misunderstood you. But if the police have released him without charges, they have no power to tell him he can’t leave the area. Or were you meaning when they initially contacted him at the scene of the accident? But even then, absent an arrest, they have no power to compel him to come to the police station for questioning. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/219 "2019-10-25T02:51:16Z")
What I mean is: repeating what my linked CTV article reported. I don’t get what you’re questioning me about. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/220 "2019-10-25T05:35:10Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > perhaps I misunderstood you. But if the police have released him without charges, they have no power to tell him he can’t leave the area. > … Yes, Police can and do tell you not to leave the jurisdiction without charges filed, they even confiscate passports. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=12)