# US diplomat's wife kills UK teenager, claims diplomatic immunity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 7, 2019, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400 "2019-10-07T07:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2019, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/221 "2019-10-25T11:37:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, Police can and do tell you not to leave the jurisdiction without charges filed, they even confiscate passports. The police can tell you that, but I don’t think they have any recourse if you leave. They can say a lot of things that aren’t true. And I don’t believe they can confiscate a passport without a court order. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/222 "2019-10-26T01:20:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The mental state would be recklessness or negligence, and the offence one involving either reckless or dangerous driving. > > [Dangerous driving](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangerous_driving) does not require that the intent be to drive dangerously, just that a competent and careful driver would know that it was dangerous. I would argue that any competent and careful driver would know which side of the road to drive on, and that it is extremely dangerous to drive on the other. > > [Causing death by dangerous driving](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causing_death_by_dangerous_driving) is a serious crime, with punsihment of up to 14 years imprisonment. > > In short, being careless about which side of the road you drive on is very much illegal, and I would say that the several people here who’ve said how easy it is should reflect on how much care they take when driving. Thank you. It does look like those laws are based on criminal negligence. Here in the US, it is unususal, I think, for serious offenses to be based on anything less than recklessness. Traffic violations can be based on negligence or may be strict liability, but typically crimes require at least a reckless mental state. (There are exceptions.) So, here, that kind of crash would probably not lead to serious charges unless there was recklessness, which requires a conscious (subjective – actual) disregard of the risk of serious harm. A driver responsible for such a crash would have civil liability for their negligence, but might not have criminal liability unless they had been drinking, knew they were sleepy, or some other additional factor showing recklessness leading up to the crash. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2019, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/223 "2019-10-26T04:44:17Z")
It is perhaps getting close to "how many angels on a pinhead’ territory, but the distinction in the UK is between “careless” and “dangerous” driving. The underlying assumption is that, to be careless, you don’t need to have made a conscious decision to weigh up risks and proceed to ignore them - you ought to have been aware of them anyway, and therefore to allow yourself to [do whatever] is ipso facto “careless”. Upthread I linked to the sentencing guidelines. It’s relevant to this point to post the link again (AIUI, your concept of “recklessness” would more likely come into play as a factor in sentencing): > **[FINAL-Death-by-driving-sentencing-leaflet-for-web1.pdf](https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/FINAL-Death-by-driving-sentencing-leaflet-for-web1.pdf)** > > 173.06 KB ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/224 "2019-10-31T04:39:38Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I can’t believe the fuss over this matter, when there’s such a [simple and effective](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwC_IaY3BmY&t=0m6s) way of dealing with it. Note that, as a consular officer, South Africa (not McAllister himself) could not invoke diplomatic immunity for actions outside his official duties, which duties would certainly not include drug smuggling and murder. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/225 "2019-10-31T13:51:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, Police can and do tell you not to leave the jurisdiction without charges filed, they even confiscate passports. In Canada? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/226 "2019-10-31T14:09:49Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > She thought she was on the correct side of the road. She was wrong, but she couldn’t have expected a collision _unless she drove on the incorrect side of the road on purpose_. Great to know that next time I’m drunk driving, because I think I’m a great driver when drunk, that the fact I couldn’t have expected a collision mean I should get off easy when I kill someone. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/227 "2019-10-31T14:53:17Z")
Meanwhile: > [@](#): > > Police investigating the death of 19-year-old Harry Dunn have interviewed crash suspect Anne Sacoolas in the US. > > Mr Dunn died in hospital after the collision outside RAF Croughton in Northamptonshire in August. > > His parents have been campaigning for justice after Mrs Sacoolas, 42, the wife of a US diplomat, returned to the US claiming diplomatic immunity. > > Northamptonshire Police said details of the interview will be passed to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS). > > Supt Sarah Johnson said: “We can confirm that we have completed an interview of the suspect in connection with the death of Harry Dunn, the details of which will be provided to the CPS for consideration alongside the rest of the evidential file already submitted.” Dunn’s parents are not happy, saying that _"developments leave us with more questions than answers_". ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/228 "2019-10-31T22:51:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Great to know that next time I’m drunk driving, because I think I’m a great driver when drunk, that the fact I couldn’t have expected a collision mean I should get off easy when I kill someone. No, because the argument is what a reasonable person with full knowledge of the facts known to you would have concluded. You know you have consumed a quantity of alcohol, and a reasonable person would think that quantity of alcohol impairs judgment and a collision is a foreseeable consequence. For an analogous situation, you’d have to start with somebody who did not know they had alcohol in their system (maybe a [gut brewer](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/10/25/auto-brewery-syndrome-alcohol-fermented-mans-stomach-study-says/2454249001/), or the target of a nasty prank). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/229 "2019-10-31T23:21:27Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Meanwhile: > > Dunn’s parents are not happy, saying that _"developments leave us with more questions than answers_". What “justice” do they want?😕 A American Diplomat in prison for five years because of a stupid mistake? ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2019, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/230 "2019-10-31T23:35:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What “justice” do they want?😕 A American Diplomat in prison for five years because of a stupid mistake? It’s hard to tell. It’s possible that some lawyers have scented the possibility of cash payouts, but that is pure speculation. I do get a sense that while most people sympathise, they are milking it a bit. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/231 "2019-11-01T00:30:36Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Great to know that next time I’m drunk driving, because I think I’m a great driver when drunk, that the fact I couldn’t have expected a collision mean I should get off easy when I kill someone. Here, it is common to have a law that specifically says that voluntary intoxication is not a defense. So if you knowingly or voluntarily got drunk and then drove recklessly, you can’t say, well, my judgment was impaired by the alcohol, so I didn’t realize I was creating a risk of serious harm. My jurisdiction has a law like that. As I think I said in a previous post, I think there would likely be criminal liability in the US if she had been drinking or perhaps if she got behind the wheel knowing she was sleepy – some linked reckless act. But because recklessness requires knowledge of and disregard of the risk, it doesn’t really fit here. If she drove on the wrong side on purpose, she was suicidal or homicidal, and it was intentional conduct. If she was not either of those, then as soon as she realized the risk – that she was on the wrong side of the road – she would have corrected it. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/232 "2019-11-01T10:44:52Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Great to know that next time I’m drunk driving, because I think I’m a great driver when drunk, that the fact I couldn’t have expected a collision mean I should get off easy when I kill someone. This analogy would be good if she believed she’d be fine driving on the wrong side of the road. Since she didn’t believe that, this analogy isn’t good. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/233 "2019-11-01T17:01:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What “justice” do they want?😕 Probably, their kid back. Which is impossible, and all, but I don’t really blame people for not acting rationally in their circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/234 "2019-11-15T11:04:35Z")
Another side to the whole the situation from [Private Eye](https://www.private-eye.co.uk/in-the-back): > [@](#): > > RAF Croughton > > IT IS hardly surprising the US is reluctant to see Anne Sacoolas put on trial in a UK court over the death of 19-year-old Harry Dunn in a crash outside “RAF” Croughton, given what goes on inside the Northamptonshire base. > > Sacoolas left the UK shortly after the August crash, initially claiming “diplomatic immunity” because her husband works at Croughton, described as housing an “annexe of the US embassy”. But that is not quite the true picture. The base is a major CIA/Pentagon communications and signals intelligence centre. It is not staffed by diplomats; Sacoolas’s husband is an intelligence officer. It has satellite and fibre-optic links to US bases around the world and to the UK’s own signals intelligence-gathering and eavesdropping headquarters, GCHQ, in Cheltenham. > > Air strikes by drones > > From Croughton, with British connivance, more than 200 US personnel control and monitor US air strikes by drones based in Djibouti on the Red Sea, including attacks on targets in Yemen and Somalia. The base is also the hub of a CIA/American National Security Agency (NSA) surveillance network, intercepting communications throughout Europe, the Middle East and North Africa. It was from there, for example, that the Americans were found to have tapped into the mobile phones of prominent politicians, including German chancellor Angela Merkel. > > The US also describes “RAF” Croughton (under the purely nominal command of a British officer) as the home of its 422nd Air Base Group. But that, too, is just another cover, designed to hide its CIA/NSA activities. However, under the 1952 Visiting Forces Act, which covers the US bases in Britain, military personnel come under the jurisdiction of the British police and Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) for any action outside their bases. > > Seeking justice > > After Donald Trump’s botched attempt last month to broker a resolution, when Harry Dunn’s family visited Washington seeking justice for their son, it seems the US has now dropped all pretence at “immunity”. The fact that the UK police have now been to the US to interview Sacoolas and submitted a file to the CPS would suggest that they may also drop any argument that the 1952 act does not apply to civilian operatives. > > Reports in both the UK and US suggest those representing Sacoolas might now be looking to negotiate some kind of plea deal – which might prevent scrutiny in court of what staff do at Croughton. It’s clear that neither the US nor British intelligence agencies would welcome such attention. Not least because the US hopes to expand Croughton and set up a “joint intelligence analysis centre”, a headquarters for all American intelligence communications in Europe and Africa. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/235 "2019-11-15T16:30:31Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Another side to the whole the situation from [Private Eye](https://www.private-eye.co.uk/in-the-back): “Seeking justice”? I still dont see what “Justice” they are seeking. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/236 "2019-11-15T17:36:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “Seeking justice”? I still dont see what “Justice” they are seeking. The same as would apply to anyone else who didn’t benefit from diplomatic immunity, I would assume. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/237 "2019-11-15T17:49:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “Seeking justice”? I still dont see what “Justice” they are seeking. Presumably they want someone held accountable. Do you think Sacoolas should escape without _any_ consequences? Should she not be financially liable for what is at a minimum her negligence? ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/238 "2019-12-20T13:59:07Z")
The latest news from the BBC: No details yet. Next step will be an extradition application I imagine. > [@](#): > > A US woman will be charged over a crash in which teenage motorcyclist Harry Dunn died, the family’s spokesman said. > > Mr Dunn, 19, died in the road crash in Northamptonshire in August that led to the suspect, Anne Sacoolas, leaving for the US under diplomatic immunity. > > The decision comes after a file of evidence was handed to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) on 1 November. ---
**Author:** ![atimnie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atimnie/32/11_2.png) [@atimnie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atimnie)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/239 "2019-12-20T15:47:45Z")
The main argument I’m seeing here is that she didn’t know she was driving on the wrong side of the road. She should still be prosecuted. As they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse. And as they also say, there’s no such thing as an accident. This was completely avoidable if she had taken five minutes to learn the rules of the road in the UK. I can see diplomatic immunity in some cases, but not when your ignorance and carelessness causes a death. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400/240 "2019-12-20T16:59:06Z")
> [@atimnie](#): > > The main argument I’m seeing here is that she didn’t know she was driving on the wrong side of the road. She should still be prosecuted. As they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse. And as they also say, there’s no such thing as an accident. This was completely avoidable if she had taken five minutes to learn the rules of the road in the UK. I can see diplomatic immunity in some cases, but not when your ignorance and carelessness causes a death. _legally_, there is such a thing as a accident. I am sure she knew them. Hey I almost got a ticket in another state for instinctively making a right turn on red (after stopping) since 99.99% of my driving has been in CA. You drive by instinct and muscle memory. And that exactly what Diplomatic immunity is for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/us-diplomats-wife-kills-uk-teenager-claims-diplomatic-immunity/841400.md?page=13)